From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: RE: emacs mode line suggestions Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:53:26 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01c948e5$c6189420$0ab32382@us.oracle.com> References: <15962952-6180-41bd-abce-1b919aa55807@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com><87y6ziu4rm.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1226948049 5215 80.91.229.12 (17 Nov 2008 18:54:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:54:09 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Richard Riley'" , Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 17 19:55:10 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1L29Fa-0001IH-CT for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:55:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52710 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L29ER-0002XU-OI for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:53:55 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L29E8-0002XC-CY for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:53:36 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L29E6-0002Wo-TY for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:53:36 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39755 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L29E6-0002Wj-OR for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:53:34 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet11.oracle.com ([141.146.126.233]:53367) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L29E6-0003Vz-IU for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:53:34 -0500 Original-Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAHIs4YC012974 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:54:05 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt706.oracle.com (acsmt706.oracle.com [141.146.40.84]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAHIrVIb026857; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:53:32 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.179.10) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:53:25 +0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AclI1tWQLQo+JPzJTCO7ODjq6XHIsQAAkrtw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt706.oracle.com [141.146.40.84] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A010204.4921BDA7.008A:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:59871 Archived-At: > > This is help-gnu-emacs. It's for getting help about using Emacs. > > But it should not be too disturbing to gauge Emacs user's views on > certain issues. The nature of a Help group often means there are more > new users and new users are often a catalyst for new and good > ideas. Any half decent news reader features thread kill and keeping > most in one or two threads is not disrupting. In addition discussion > threads on functionality are often educational - many such threads > have taught me new things about how and why things are in Emacs. You can do as you like, of course; I'm not moderating this mailing list. I'm really just trying to help. The point is that such discussions are part of the _purpose_ of emacs-devel, and help-gnu-emacs has a different purpose. If you want to influence Emacs developers to make changes, emacs-devel is the place. To get changes made, there will ultimately need to be a discussion at emacs-devel anyway - might as well put it there to begin with. Can discussion of possible Emacs improvements be educational and helpful for users, new and old? Yes, of course. Absolutely. Users who are interested in reading or participating in such discussions can subscribe to emacs-devel. Personally, I encourage that. In the world of Emacs _in particular_, there is no clear separation between user and designer or implementor. Any and all users - new and old - who are interested in such discussion: Please subscribe to emacs-devel, whether you just want to lurk or you want to contribute. That will help improve both emacs-devel and Emacs. People, myself included, sometimes complain that emacs-devel is not open enough or is too set in its ways. The remedy for that is for more people to participate. Like it or not, there is no substitute for arguing your case at emacs-devel for a particular change you want. If you think Emacs needs fresh ideas and you have some, bring them to emacs-devel, by all means. Be prepared to support them with clear, logical argument, of course. And patience is advised: "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes well you just might find you get what you need." FWIW, I have contributed countless suggestions to emacs-devel for improving (IMO) Emacs. Relatively few have been incorporated. But emacs-devel is still the most effective place to discuss such things, IMO, not help-gnu-emacs. There is no guarantee that your suggestions will be followed at emacs-devel - the contrary is more likely. But they will be read and seriously considered. Another, indirect way to influence Emacs development is to implement the changes you propose and make them available somewhere in a library. That ultimately can affect Emacs development by being food for thought or through direct inclusion someday. The developers who build and distribute Emacs can sometimes be persuaded by sound argument if the idea is a good one, but working code that _shows_ them what you want can be even more persuasive. Even if your third-party code never changes the Emacs distribution, it can help other users, and they will give you valuable feedback to further your own ideas of improvement. There are many good libraries out there that have never been added to the Emacs distribution and probably never will be. Yet they indirectly affect the evolution of Emacs. This is because the real designers and developers of Emacs are a much wider group than those who modify and distribute the Emacs source code. All user feedback and bug reports are part of Emacs development, as are third-party Emacs libraries. This is of course true generally, but it is all the more true for Emacs, where many (most?) users create their own Emacs through customization, coding, and reuse of third-party code. Emacs's users are its developers. If you are interested in how Emacs evolves, please join the discussion at emacs-devel.