Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

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"Abraham S.A.H." writes:

> Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> I didn't say that. You know why? Because I didn't mean it.
>> It doesn't take much experience to do cool things fast
>> in Python, it is a fact.
>
> I agree to disagree, Emanuel!  Sorry, but I do not think “Python is
> a generally better programming language”.  Perhaps Python is very good
> in some aspects but not in general, and I know Python better than any
> other language.
>
> I think that Python is popular in  the sense of “there are more Python
> programmers than most other languages”.   And I think “In the software
> industry, technical  merits of a  programming language do not  make it
> popular.”!  Java and C and JS  didn't become popular only due to their
> technical merits.

While this is true (with the caveat "only" which you do include), there
is actually something strange about how Python spread.

When looking at how Python spread: compared to other languages and
before Python 3 (2008) it was the odd one out. It was slowly but
constantly growing in popularity. It didn’t have one killer feature, but
it was growing organically from genuine fans:
https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/python/

In 2008 it had a boost in popularity and then actually has been losing —
in 2013 when I switched on to Guile,¹ many others seem to have done the
same. The TIOBE rating of Python *halved* between 2013 and 2014.

And then came the whole AI craze. 2017 Tensor Flow 1.0 was released and
2018 popularity of Python started going off the roof, but not in one
step, but still incrementally (though less constant than before 2008).

Before 2008 and after 2018 there has been something not seen in other
languages. Other languages have a cycle of an event pushing popularity
up, then waning popularity. Python didn’t.

It grew more continuously and that may point to an actual quality of the
language.

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

¹ why and how I switched from Python to Guile Scheme:
  https://www.draketo.de/py2guile
  
> Do you know Python and Lisp and acknowledge their difference?

I do. Since 2013 I’ve been using Guile as my main hobby-language.
Between around 2006 and 2013 I’ve been using Python almost exclusively —
and a lot, 2011 to 2013 full-time.

> For  removing  a  statement  in   Python,  use  `kill-line`  (C-k)  or
> `kill-whole-line`.  For removing a  statement in Lisp, use `kill-sexp`
> (C-M-k).

This often moves the parentheses to the previous line, so the diff
you’ll be looking at to review the change will show a changed line and a
deleted line.

> You  are using  your  own  presumptions to  reason  out, and  convince
> others.  Your presumptions are not mine,  and your facts are not facts
> to me.

Either they are facts or they are not. Please don’t go mixing this up.

You cannot say “these are not my facts” without leaving the grounds of
logic.

The Tiobe index I linked above is a fact, but its interpretation is not.
Whether it is genuinely better can’t be established as fact, but that it
spread differently from other languages is clearly visible.

That it doesn’t take much time to do things fast in Python is a fact,
proven over and over again, but the interpretation *why* that is and
whether it means that Python is a better language is not.

And all that still doesn’t mean that I prefer it (why else would I use
Guile instead and write in an emacs-devel channel — now emacs-tangent?).

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Johan Myréen]

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>
> And then came the whole AI craze. 2017 Tensor Flow 1.0 was released and
> 2018 popularity of Python started going off the roof, but not in one step,
> but still incrementally (though less constant than before 2008).


The boost in Python's popularity from 2017 onwards is due to the NumPy and
SciPy libraries, which were used for "Data Science". The AI craze did not
start until later.

One of Python's strengths is the availability of useful libraries
("batteries included") combined with a simple syntax, which enable people
to get their job done.

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Jean Louis]

* Abraham S.A.H." via "Emacs development discussions. <emacs-devel@gnu.org> [2024-08-07 21:59]:
> > Emacs-w3m is from Japan <3
> 
> As I said, perhaps only in Japan.
> 
> However, as an Asian, I know no university in my country or neighbour
> countries teaching Lisp. Just a few pages of history and no more.
> But they teach C, Java and Python.

But what happens after, they wander into the wide world, armed with
their Java and Python knowledge, only to discover the secret society
of Emacs enthusiasts—those mythical beings who can summon text-editing
magic with a mere key combination. That is how people come to Emacs
Lisp, they get tired of what they already know.

Once they discover the joy of Emacs, the circle is complete.

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2024-08-09 10:20]:
> Abraham S.A.H." via "Emacs development discussions. wrote:
> 
> >> It doesn't take much experience to do cool things fast in
> >> Python, it is a fact.
> >
> > I agree to disagree, Emanuel!  Sorry, but I do not think
> > "Python is a generally better programming language".
> 
> Devel time faster than in Lisp, is what I'm saying.

I believe that the speed of development is influenced by how the
programmer has structured the foundational components.

I believe Lisp-like languages are ideal for this purpose. Unlike many
other languages, which can make speeding up development a challenge,
Lisp-like languages make the process much easier and more
straightforward.

I am sorry that you haven't arrived at that understanding yet, but
it's great that you grasped it in another language.

What works, works.

I would use software in any language if it gives me product or service
I need.

> Maybe one could have a Lisp that also was as fast or almost as
> fast, if one focused on that aspect.

I gave you references, Lisp is so much faster than your praised babies.


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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

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Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> Yes, The developers have done _a lot_ but they have not been
> the type of leaders who use their surroundings to make them
> better, and become even better themselves. They want to do
> everything themselves and if you are just a few bunch of guys
> doing that, that's gonna be a problem.

Whom do you see as developers here?

Given that melpa and elpa and elpa-nongnu exist where outside devs do a
lot of work, you can’t just mean the core programmers, because they
obviously don’t do everything by themselves.

So you would have to mean the package authors.

But that includes people who learned from vim (and got many vim-users to
switch to Spacemacs or Doom). Who learned from language servers. Who
created full-blown IDEs as well as lean, continuously built Make
integration and flycheck linting.

So you can’t really mean these, either.

As a result I’m at a loss as to whom your comment actually matches.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Joel Reicher]

Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> No, I think the frustration, IIRC, ws because
>
> (1) No one else was enthusiastic about making Elisp better, in 
>     part for its own sake, to make och try to make Emacs a Lisp 
>     powerhouse up there with CL and Clojure (and others); and

To my mind that's a bit like saying make a mouse trap better by 
making it more like a bear trap.

By all means make elisp better, but don't compare it to languages 
that are used for different things.

> (2) even more so, I was frustrated with that boasting, 
>     functional programming is superior (absolutely not true), 
>     Lisp is built-in superior to other languages, Lisps syntax 
>     is an advantage, Lisp programs are short and elegant (yes, 
>     sometimes, before they get too long, e.g. gnus-sum.el [13 
>     239 lines], Lisp programmers have a better mental 
>     understanding of their programs compared to other 
>     programmers and their sorry languages.

Different languages are good for different things. Saying one 
language is better than another only makes sense if they are being 
used for the same thing, and only in the context of that thing.

I like Lisp, but I wouldn't use it for everything.

Regards,

        - Joel

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Indeed

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