Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello, Emanuel.

On Mon, Aug 05, 2024 at 00:55:48 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> Jeremy Bryant wrote:

> > Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming
> > languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant
> > a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp.
> > It will give you standard for measuring other languages.

> Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant
> are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical
> engineering one can measure it.

> > Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs
> > Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> > superior, but not all of them.

> Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing
> to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an
> alternative to Python 2024.

> It will sounds like we are a bunch of fanatics boasting from
> our own echo chamber were, inside it, we all are fantastic and
> high on Lisp.

> Lisp's superiority is a myth.

> To me it is more like a drug :)

To understand the opposite point of view, read one of Paul Graham's
essays at https://paulgraham.com/icad.html, where he describes 9
novelties introduced by Lisp into programming in 1958, and how most, but
not all, of these have since been adopted by lesser languages.

My own view is that Lisp indeed is one of the top languages, but that
Common Lisp is too big, and thus too difficult, to learn for most
programmers.  For those who succeed in learning it, their productivity
will be enormous whilst using it.  Maybe this productivity could be
matched by other "strange" languages (Haskell, perhaps?), but not by
"normal" languages such as C, C++, Java, Python or perl.  I think it a
pity that a moderate sized Lisp, something around the size of Emacs Lisp
without the cl-* extensions, never made it as a general purpose language
alongside the above.

> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

---
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Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Christopher Dimech via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Alan, we both opened a discussion on tangents.



> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2024 at 8:03 AM
> From: "Alan Mackenzie" <acm@muc.de>
> To: emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other
>
> Hello, Emanuel.
>
> On Mon, Aug 05, 2024 at 00:55:48 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> > Jeremy Bryant wrote:
>
> > > Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming
> > > languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant
> > > a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp.
> > > It will give you standard for measuring other languages.
>
> > Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant
> > are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical
> > engineering one can measure it.
>
> > > Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs
> > > Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> > > superior, but not all of them.
>
> > Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing
> > to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an
> > alternative to Python 2024.
>
> > It will sounds like we are a bunch of fanatics boasting from
> > our own echo chamber were, inside it, we all are fantastic and
> > high on Lisp.
>
> > Lisp's superiority is a myth.
>
> > To me it is more like a drug :)
>
> To understand the opposite point of view, read one of Paul Graham's
> essays at https://paulgraham.com/icad.html, where he describes 9
> novelties introduced by Lisp into programming in 1958, and how most, but
> not all, of these have since been adopted by lesser languages.
>
> My own view is that Lisp indeed is one of the top languages, but that
> Common Lisp is too big, and thus too difficult, to learn for most
> programmers.  For those who succeed in learning it, their productivity
> will be enormous whilst using it.  Maybe this productivity could be
> matched by other "strange" languages (Haskell, perhaps?), but not by
> "normal" languages such as C, C++, Java, Python or perl.  I think it a
> pity that a moderate sized Lisp, something around the size of Emacs Lisp
> without the cl-* extensions, never made it as a general purpose language
> alongside the above.
>
> > --
> > underground experts united
> > https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
>
> ---
> via emacs-tangents mailing list (https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)
>

---
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Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Jean Louis]

* Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> [2024-08-05 23:04]:
> To understand the opposite point of view, read one of Paul Graham's
> essays at https://paulgraham.com/icad.html, where he describes 9
> novelties introduced by Lisp into programming in 1958, and how most, but
> not all, of these have since been adopted by lesser languages.

I have read it, of course articles by Graham are very insightful.

> My own view is that Lisp indeed is one of the top languages, but that
> Common Lisp is too big, and thus too difficult, to learn for most
> programmers.

My personal view on Common Lisp at the time when I was learning it was
that it was childish simple as compared to previous programming
languages I knew. I even got impression that people who loved Guile,
Scheme, Emacs Lisp, Common Lisp are bragging over the childish easy
language. Learning was not hard, it was pleasure, and I was feeling
like coming back home.

Jean

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Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Immanuel Litzroth]

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Matthias Felleisen has done work on comparing programming languages:
https://jgbm.github.io/eecs762f19/papers/felleisen.pdf
Also some of the practical aspects of using Python vs other languages have
been documented here:
https://haslab.github.io/SAFER/scp21.pdf
i


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:03 PM Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:

> Hello, Emanuel.
>
> On Mon, Aug 05, 2024 at 00:55:48 +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
> > Jeremy Bryant wrote:
>
> > > Lisp is the most powerful and elegant of programming
> > > languages. If you want to see how powerful and elegant
> > > a programming language can be, you need to learn Lisp.
> > > It will give you standard for measuring other languages.
>
> > Ah, I don't know, that kind of boasting. Powerful and elegant
> > are both immeasurable things, well, maybe in electrical
> > engineering one can measure it.
>
> > > Calling Emacs Lisp "python-like" is derogatory to Emacs
> > > Lisp. Python has some of the characteristics that make Lisp
> > > superior, but not all of them.
>
> > Okay, then everyone should know this is a controversial thing
> > to say. No one, or very few, would recommend Emacs Lisp as an
> > alternative to Python 2024.
>
> > It will sounds like we are a bunch of fanatics boasting from
> > our own echo chamber were, inside it, we all are fantastic and
> > high on Lisp.
>
> > Lisp's superiority is a myth.
>
> > To me it is more like a drug :)
>
> To understand the opposite point of view, read one of Paul Graham's
> essays at https://paulgraham.com/icad.html, where he describes 9
> novelties introduced by Lisp into programming in 1958, and how most, but
> not all, of these have since been adopted by lesser languages.
>
> My own view is that Lisp indeed is one of the top languages, but that
> Common Lisp is too big, and thus too difficult, to learn for most
> programmers.  For those who succeed in learning it, their productivity
> will be enormous whilst using it.  Maybe this productivity could be
> matched by other "strange" languages (Haskell, perhaps?), but not by
> "normal" languages such as C, C++, Java, Python or perl.  I think it a
> pity that a moderate sized Lisp, something around the size of Emacs Lisp
> without the cl-* extensions, never made it as a general purpose language
> alongside the above.
>
> > --
> > underground experts united
> > https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
>
> ---
> via emacs-tangents mailing list (
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-tangents)
>


-- 
-- A man must either resolve to point out nothing new or to become a slave
to defend it. -- Sir Isaac Newton

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Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Jean Louis]

* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2024-08-06 22:53]:
> Flamewars begin when discussions employ inflated descriptions of a language

I like it.

> For instance, a statement like "The great power of the Lisp language makes it
> ideal for other purposes, such as writing editing commands" can be seen as
> provocative. Irking those who prefer other languages or who have experienced the
> limitations of Lisp in their work.

Isn't praise for each programming language found in their books?!

Nothing wrong about it.

> Words like "great power" are subjective and can be interpreted differently by
> different people. Some might view them as an accurate reflection of Lisp's
> capabilities, while others might see them as an overstatement, leading to
> disagreements.

The context remains relevant, particularly regarding great
power. There are very few editors like Emacs, and that context is
still applicable today.

> To avoid flamewars, documentation should strive for balanced and
> factual descriptions, providing historical context.

I was thinking fun started, and now you wish to avoid it.

> A balanced documentation example would be
> 
> Emacs Lisp (Elisp) is a dialect of the Lisp programming language, chosen by
> Richard Stallman for its flexibility and his familiarity with it from projects
> like the Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) and the Lisp Machine Operating
> System at MIT.

That above is Boring, come on, here is better version:

Emacs Lisp (Elisp) is not just any programming language; it's the
beating heart of the ultimate text editor, Emacs. Chosen by the
brilliant Richard Stallman for its unparalleled flexibility, Elisp
empowers users to customize their editing experience in ways that are
simply impossible with other editors. Stallman’s expertise, honed
through groundbreaking projects like the Incompatible Timesharing
System (ITS) and the Lisp Machine Operating System at MIT, solidified
Elisp as the backbone of Emacs, transforming it into an editor that
transcends mere text editing. With Elisp, users tap into a world of
infinite possibilities, tailoring Emacs to fit their every need,
making it the best choice for anyone serious about productivity and
creativity. Why settle for less when you can harness the power of
Elisp in the finest editor ever created? Emacs truly sets the
standard!

Emacs is not just an editor; it is a revolution in the world of text
manipulation, a sophisticated powerhouse that redefines the very
concept of what an editor can be! Its design, meticulously crafted
with unparalleled attention to compatibility with Unix, catapults it
to a level of portability that no other editor can even dare to
approach.

With the incredible capabilities of Elisp, the very lifeblood of
Emacs, users have at their fingertips a relentless, supercharged tool
for writing editing commands that eclipses the functionality of all
other editors combined! The possibilities are limitless—commanding
every aspect of your workflow with elegance and precision that’s
simply unattainable in any other editing environment.

While other programming languages might boast their unique strengths,
they pale in comparison to the sheer versatility of Emacs and
Elisp. Why settle for mediocrity when you can wield the best? Emacs is
not merely suited for specific tasks; it is a universal toolkit that
transforms the mundane into the extraordinary, empowering every user
to achieve feats of productivity that would leave mere mortals in awe.

Emacs is, without a doubt, the ultimate editor, the crown jewel of
software development, a perennial favorite for those who value true
mastery over their editing experiences. Embrace the greatness of
Emacs, and you will never look back!


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

✡️🛡️ Proudly standing with Israel, a nation rooted in history and culture. Let's condemn hatred and promote understanding.

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

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Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2024-08-07 13:51]:
> Abraham S.A.H." via "Emacs development discussions. wrote:
> 
> >> Lisp is stronger at universities.
> >
> > Not in Asia!  I can't name a  university in Asia where Lisp
> > is taught. Lisp was never taught in our universities.  Not
> > in Asia and not in the Middle East.  Perhaps in Japan?
> 
> Emacs-w3m is from Japan <3
> 
> Seriously, I can't name any universities anywhere except mine
> but I can guarantee 100% that Lisp is stronger relatively in
> CS classes and the like than it is everywhere else.

Does it really matter? I’m not sure. Many people study various
programming languages, yet in the end find themselves using Emacs
Lisp. It’s clear that university isn’t where you’ll learn the secrets
of the craft.

> Emacs and a few other important applications are written in
> Lisp (Emacs is partly written in Elisp), other than that Lisp
> is a hobby for some part of the computer elite.

While most folks are just trying to type a simple grocery list, the
Emacs users are out here editing the fabric of reality with a text
editor that’s basically a Swiss Army knife on steroids, powered by
Lisp and the dreams of nerds everywhere!

There's no need to use the powers; just continue making grocery lists.


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Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

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Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Emacs Lisp (Elisp) is not just any programming language; it's the
> beating heart of the ultimate text editor, Emacs. Chosen by the
> brilliant Richard Stallman for its unparalleled flexibility, Elisp
> empowers users to customize their editing experience in ways that are
> simply impossible with other editors. Stallman’s expertise, honed
> through groundbreaking projects like the Incompatible Timesharing
> System (ITS) and the Lisp Machine Operating System at MIT, solidified
> Elisp as the backbone of Emacs, transforming it into an editor that
> transcends mere text editing. With Elisp, users tap into a world of
> infinite possibilities, tailoring Emacs to fit their every need,
> making it the best choice for anyone serious about productivity and
> creativity. Why settle for less when you can harness the power of
> Elisp in the finest editor ever created? Emacs truly sets the
> standard!
>
> Emacs is not just an editor; it is a revolution in the world of text
> manipulation, a sophisticated powerhouse that redefines the very
> concept of what an editor can be! Its design, meticulously crafted
> with unparalleled attention to compatibility with Unix, catapults it
> to a level of portability that no other editor can even dare to
> approach.
>
> With the incredible capabilities of Elisp, the very lifeblood of
> Emacs, users have at their fingertips a relentless, supercharged tool
> for writing editing commands that eclipses the functionality of all
> other editors combined! The possibilities are limitless—commanding
> every aspect of your workflow with elegance and precision that’s
> simply unattainable in any other editing environment.

This lacks a note about being improved¹ over decades by diverse groups of
expert hackers who care for their tools ☺

¹ better word lacking. "Honed" is already used in another place ☺

> While other programming languages might boast their unique strengths,
> they pale in comparison to the sheer versatility of Emacs and
> Elisp. Why settle for mediocrity when you can wield the best? Emacs is
> not merely suited for specific tasks; it is a universal toolkit that
> transforms the mundane into the extraordinary, empowering every user
> to achieve feats of productivity that would leave mere mortals in awe.
>
> Emacs is, without a doubt, the ultimate editor, the crown jewel of
> software development, a perennial favorite for those who value true
> mastery over their editing experiences. Embrace the greatness of
> Emacs, and you will never look back!

This calls for becoming a blog post!
And being recorded as a youtube video.

(maybe with the subtitle: you may find hyperbole here. The fun is real!)

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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