Free software politics, not world politics please

Free software politics, not world politics please

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> [2022-06-25 12:47]:
> On 25.06.2022 09:49, Jean Louis wrote:
> > Sure you have. Just that we wish to include Russian in this mailing
> > list, and Ukrainian, and not foster conflicts with this war mongering
> > signature of yours. Find better forums for that.
> 
> I don't mind the signature.

Please understand that we do not talk about Dmitry here, we talk about
nice behavior on a mailing list related to free software.

Free software is what unites all members of this mailing list, and
what brings new people to produce free software.

It is not relevant from where those people come from, which
nationality, and so on.

By promoting delivery of weapons Herr Uwe Brauer also promotes
continuance of further killing in Ukraine. That may be his choice, I
call it Labern in German, but that for his promotion he better finds
some other more appropriate forums. As that is world politics, and not
free software politics.

World politics may divide people on GNU mailing lists. 

Avoiding politics on GNU mailing list is a friendly way to
go. Promoting wars cannot be friendly as it is always either this or
against the other side. It is not inclusive.

GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

,----
| Please don't raise unrelated political issues in GNU Project
| discussions, because they are off-topic. The only political positions
| that the GNU Project endorses are (1) that users should have control
| of their own computing (for instance, through free software) and (2)
| supporting basic human rights in computing. We don't require you as a
| contributor to agree with these two points, but you do need to accept
| that our decisions will be based on them.
`----


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Free software politics, not world politics please

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "JL" == Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> [2022-06-25 12:47]:
>> On 25.06.2022 09:49, Jean Louis wrote:
>> > Sure you have. Just that we wish to include Russian in this mailing
>> > list, and Ukrainian, and not foster conflicts with this war mongering
>> > signature of yours. Find better forums for that.
>> 
>> I don't mind the signature.

> Please understand that we do not talk about Dmitry here, we talk about
> nice behavior on a mailing list related to free software.

Just a last comment, before, Eli, rightly might intervene. 

I have chosen a *signature* of my liking. I am pretty sure that you have
all the necessary software skills at your disposal to not display this
signature.

But instead, the one who is babbling (that is the translation of the
word labern you are using) in this mailing list, is you.

If you were Russian I could see a point and would try to explain, but
you are not even Russian,

But worse of all: you  support a war of aggressions, denying an
attacked nations its right of self defense, that is guaranteed by the
international law.

Your statement that helping the Ukraine to self defend its country, 
would mean killing more people is not *only cynical* since it implies
that the aggressor succeeds unperturbed and causing the death of 10 of
thousands you seem not to care about, but is just *disgusting*



-- 
I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against the Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military. 
I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.
I support the EU membership of the Ukraine.
https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

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Re: Free software politics, not world politics please

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2022-06-25, at 12:41, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> By promoting delivery of weapons Herr Uwe Brauer also promotes
> continuance of further killing in Ukraine.

While I do not claim that Uwe should or should not delete his signature
(my personal opinion is he need not delete it, but I am not 100% sure it
doesn't conflict with this list's standards), I feel obliged to point
out that the above opinion of Jean looks nonsensical.  From what I know,
Ukrainians do their best to _stop_ the war, and I find it probable that
what they are doing is a _just war_
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory).

An imperfect analogy.  Imagine a serial killer shooting at unarmed kids
in a school.  Imagine someone may or may not provide a weapon to a guard
who would then be able to kill the murderer.  Would you call giving the
guard a weapon "promoting continuance of further killing at that
school"?  I surely would not.  I _would_ prefer disarming the killer in
such a way that _he_ wasn't killed, obviously, but if that is not
possible, I consider it morally acceptable to kill him.

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://mbork.pl

Re: Free software politics, not world politics please

[Eli Zaretskii]

Please note, all of you, that you are quickly approaching the line
where this will not be appropriate even for emacs-tangents.  There's
nothing event remotely related to Emacs in this discussion.

Re: [what's wrong with you] (was: Weniger labern bitte)

[Jean Louis]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-06-25 15:12]:
> >>> "JL" == Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > Hallo Uwe,
> > Bitte lassen Sie Menschen in Bezug auf Freie Software kolaborieren,
> > also machen Sie bitte keine Trennung zwischen Menschen die an der
> > Emacs Mailing Liste teilnehmen. Emacs ist nicht ihre Weltpolitik, es
> > geht nut um Freie Software.
> 
> 
> I am not sure what you want to achieve with this half baked German
> message. So you speak some German or know how to use the google
> translator, well I speak some French but none  of us is a native
> speaker, so let us better stick to English.
> 
> I have chosen a signature of my liking. I am confident that you have all
> the software skills at your disposal to *not* display my signature, but
> you chose to sent me censuring messages.

Well let me improve my English:

1. reprimand, censure, criminate -- (rebuke formally)

Did I? If that is so, I let it be. I consider it rather a request,
"Bitte um Einsicht", that we have there all kinds of users, and we do
not promote wars in GNU, but we strive to promote software freedom.

I hope you did not mean censoring, as that would be something else.

> This is especially annoying given your past messages:
> 
> 
> 
>     1. not only did you present a series of wild, unfounded conspiracy
>        stories («I was in Germany I wrote a book, I know Hitler was
>        just a puppet),

I never wrote a book in Germany. I have participated by providing
research information to a book author.

That is not a conspiracy but fact. Go to Holocaust Museum in Berlin
and make your own research.

Those statements are not related to any support of war, neither they
are related to your "weapon delivery" on GNU mailing lists. 

If you find it annoying, I am sure you will find some solution.

>     2. but you even insulted my families and friends being either be
>        brainwashed or victims of a mass hypothesis because there were no
>        uprisings in East Germany, Hungary, Cheslovakia. Frankly these
>        messages seemed to me a product of a perturbed mind.

I have not insulted your families. I have not even know until now that
you have many of them. I know nothing about you but your full name,
email address and your university. I have not know nothing about
uprising, and I never involved myself in such discussions of uprising
in East Germany, Hungary, what. 

And I do not mind how you think I have perturbed mind, that is your
freedom. 

I welcome you just as anybody. I respect your free software
motivations.

I do not mind what you think about what country, if you are nazi or
not nazi, I do not mind that.

All the above IS NOT RELEVANT:

What I mind is that we do not divide people on GNU mailing list, by
promoting wars.

Speak about your politics and views somewhere else. Feel free.

> So I am forced to conclude that you are Putin's puppet, 

One big fricking buhahahahaha on that.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Free software politics, not world politics please

[Jean Louis]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-06-25 15:11]:
> >>> "JL" == Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > * Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> [2022-06-25 12:47]:
> >> On 25.06.2022 09:49, Jean Louis wrote:
> >> > Sure you have. Just that we wish to include Russian in this mailing
> >> > list, and Ukrainian, and not foster conflicts with this war mongering
> >> > signature of yours. Find better forums for that.
> >> 
> >> I don't mind the signature.
> 
> > Please understand that we do not talk about Dmitry here, we talk about
> > nice behavior on a mailing list related to free software.
> 
> Just a last comment, before, Eli, rightly might intervene. 
> 
> I have chosen a *signature* of my liking. I am pretty sure that you have
> all the necessary software skills at your disposal to not display this
> signature.
> 
> But instead, the one who is babbling (that is the translation of the
> word labern you are using) in this mailing list, is you.
> 
> If you were Russian I could see a point and would try to explain, but
> you are not even Russian,

OK, I am sure that you have difficulties seeing the point. So the
point is here:

GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

,----
| Please don't raise unrelated political issues in GNU Project
| discussions, because they are off-topic. The only political positions
| that the GNU Project endorses are (1) that users should have control
| of their own computing (for instance, through free software) and (2)
| supporting basic human rights in computing. We don't require you as a
| contributor to agree with these two points, but you do need to accept
| that our decisions will be based on them.
`----

Who cares if I am Russian or what. It may matter only to some types of
racists. 

> But worse of all: you  support a war of aggressions, denying an
> attacked nations its right of self defense, that is guaranteed by the
> international law.

I do not support ANY war EVER, and never DID ever.

> Your statement that helping the Ukraine to self defend its country, 
> would mean killing more people is not *only cynical* since it implies
> that the aggressor succeeds unperturbed and causing the death of 10 of
> thousands you seem not to care about, but is just *disgusting*

Problem is not so easy. Human lives are not a free programming code
where things may be placed very logical and transparent for everybody
to understand what is going on. A professior in University sitting far
far from those affected families in Ukraine cannot understand their
suffering, a professor may know international laws and act upon such
blunt forms and norms. What about human rights? Do those 13,000 people
have also human rights? They were Ukrainian nationals within Ukraine.

> I strongly condemn Putin's war of aggression against the Ukraine.

I would agree on your signature if you would rather be bipartisan and
say that you condemn all kinds of killings and aggression. However,
you are not independently looking on the situation.

> I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military.

That is such a stupid decision, frankly. Those weapons are never
delivered free of charge, they are loan to Ukraine, thus you like
future generations of Ukrainian children to be enslaved to pax all the
taxes so that they can pay the money back for anyway (to be) destroyed
weapons.

If you live in EU, you are taking bread from other people without
asking them for consent. Somebody needs to pay all that war
support.

If you or me support it or not, it does not matter anyway, as
countries will simply decide on the top level to spend our citizen'
money and send those weapons. 

If you support it there are those corrupted European MEPs, write to
them.

There are better ways, for whatever you wish to achieve, including
collaborating with your university professors.

Feel free to go to Ukraine as mercenary, that is all your decision.

But all that is not relevant to GNU and free software.

Why did you find GNU mailing list to find your your proponents?

There are better places on Internet with more exposure for you. There
are better ways of advertising. Pay some advertising and get your
new members in the club.

> I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.

SWIFT is very private organization. Me I support banning ALL countries
from SWIFT. Why only Russia?

> I support the EU membership of the Ukraine.

Why not?

It is up to every corrupted country to join the corrupted EU or not.

> https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

I do not mind such a nice website. It is not directly supporting war mongering.



-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Free software politics, not world politics please

[Jean Louis]

* Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl> [2022-06-25 15:22]:
> 
> On 2022-06-25, at 12:41, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> > By promoting delivery of weapons Herr Uwe Brauer also promotes
> > continuance of further killing in Ukraine.
> 
> While I do not claim that Uwe should or should not delete his signature
> (my personal opinion is he need not delete it, but I am not 100% sure it
> doesn't conflict with this list's standards), I feel obliged to point
> out that the above opinion of Jean looks nonsensical.  From what I know,
> Ukrainians do their best to _stop_ the war, and I find it probable that
> what they are doing is a _just war_
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_war_theory).

However, I do not mind that. 


I just say it is not place in GNU or Emacs to discuss about it, as the
mailing list remains public for long time, it is on Internet and
becomes part of databases of many search engines:

https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/

And we shall avoid "other politics" but keep "free software politics".

People reading what we are promoting may feel rejected and we get
division.

It is NOT alright to keep signature such as promoting delivery of
weapons to Ukraine for the sake of millions of people in Ukraine who
are in danger exaclty because of shelling for last 8 years there.

It is sensitive issue. Otherwise we could get all the nazis to promote
their hatred views in their signatures. 

There are many wars in the world.

What GNU does as community is bringing people together.

Any time that peope talk to each other and find understanding such as
in Emacs or anything else -- that brings humanity one step forward.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: Free software politics, not world politics please

[Eli Zaretskii]

You don't get the hint, do you?

So now you are moderated here.  Congratulations!

P.S.  This will happen with others as well, if they don't get the
hint.