Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-05 15:26]:
> >>> "JL" == Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > * Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-01 20:40]:
> >> > That is insanity. To stop the war one has to do it peacefully. 
> >> 
> >> With all due respect, given the recent events that is almost unbearable.
> >> I am not sure whether this is some kind of irony I am unable to gasp or
> >> you are serious about this. If it is the latter, let me ask you this:
> >> 
> >> Should have Adolf Hitler also be stopped peacefully be talking?
> >> Should the Holocaust be stopped by talking? Really?
> 
> 
> > Of course.
> 
> 
> I thought that was a rhetoric question but you took it seriously. 
> So I am curious how is this supposed to have worked.

By watching human rights abuses and having mechanism to immediately
act. Would we have fundamental principles globally established then we
could all act in time.

Example is now, the West thinks Russia is wrong and now they boykot
Russian resources. I don't have problem with it. The mechanism is
good, though problem is because we did not boykot US resources when
they attacked other countries, we also did not boykot Ukrainian
resources when they attacked Ukrainians. 

Problem is that we don't have such mechanisms in the world. Did you
see OSCE reports? For 8 years it was reported that war is in Ukraine
and media did not act to inform people, so that people get
"moved". Nobody acted, but few official organizations. Now there is
apparently for us who are not informed, "invasion" or sudden
unprovoked war. Though that is factually not so. The war was provoked
for 8 years by Nazis in Ukraine.

Are these here not Nazis?
https://pleroma.gnusocial.club/notice/AH6OwkHvann2VVj9HM

> So after the Wannensee conference 20.01.1942
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference The SS on the order
> of Adolf Hitler starts to very systematically kill all Jews they can
> find.
> 
> And you would tell Hitler what? What do you offer in exchange?

Hitler was marionette. I was in Germany and assisting to supply some
pictures, documents, so to make the book about men behind Hitler, so
we have documented it nicely. Hitler is marionette for depopulation
plans.

What you speak of 1942 began so much earlier, even back in 1800 and
1700 years. This is because our planet in general is not well
organized.

Do you know Declaration of Human Rights? Almost all countries approved
it, but almost none truly adopted it.

I don't say that Declaration of Human Rights is nicely written
document. But I say that we do not have ANY fundamental document valid
globally for all of us.

What we have is self matured system of "sovereign" countries where
each country is allowed to do what they want to their people. I don't
agree to that system.

> He keeps saying «I do not care I need to kill all Jews I can find.»

It is too late. Communication had to happen so much earlier.

> So, you wouldn't say the concept is flawed in that case because the
> other side simply refuses to find a compromise?

They would not refuse.

You can see any smaller group of people that are managed by
fundamental principles and you can see that people CAN be policed, and
I don't mean by police, but by communication.

Example are groups of children in kindergardens and schools in Europe
where teachers do not apply corporal punishment. So what do they
apply? They apply communication.

War is communication. Though lowest kind of communication and it
ALWAYS takes place when higher communication apparently failed.

You are also pointing out to the problem of talking but other side not
listening. If we think of higher civilized communication being on
scale from 1 to 10, somewhere like 5, then you are pointing to
situation something like:

1) Talking on scale of 5 to party who does not apparently listen;

2) Other party starts talking on scale of 4, and you from (1) go down
   scale to 4; or maybe scale 3; that maybe something like threats;

3) Or you think party does not listen and you go to scale of 3, 2 then
   1; that is killing, war, communication by force;

I hope you got the idea.

And I say that all is wrong.

When party does not listen, one doesn't go down, and discriminate
innocent Russian in Europe because they are Russian.

What one shall do is go scale up. Not down.

You can't talk to parties in conflict if you don't address the
conflict.

We have never done that. Some media does, some politicians they do,
but it is obviously not enough.

US and Europe did not address the conflict in Ukraine.

And now all we know is Putin and invasion, we say "stop". But because
we have never addressed the true problem, we cannot solve it. Do you
see?

You can't solve any problem until you find what the problem is.

> Well in any case let us run a simple experiment. Try to convince me by
> arguments that your right in your concept and more importantly, why it
> would be rationale for the Ukraine government to agree in being
> disarmed

As you mentioned "disarmed" you obviously do not understand the
problem. I suggest you read OSCE reports.

Daily and spot reports from the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine | OSCE
https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports/?filters=+ds_date:([2021-01-01T00:00:00Z%20TO%202022-01-01T00:00:00Z])&solrsort=ds_date%20desc&rows=10

This war is NOT about Ukraine being disarmed. That did not make any
problems to Russia until 2014 and until the illegal change of
government, as sponsored by US.

I am not on this or the other side, I am just sad that truth has not
been shown 8 years, that war was going on 8 years in Ukraine and that
West did not react.

> and trust a politician you does not keep his words (see below) and
> started a full scale war of aggression.

I see how Ukrainian politicans did not keep their promises from first
Minsk agreement. Do you see before few days they said they will make
corridor for people to pass, and they continued shelling on them.

Minsk agreement was about keeping words. This war could as well happen
before 8 years, Russia was holding despite human rights abuses in
Ukraine.

See my thread on Ukrainian Nazis here:
https://pleroma.gnusocial.club/notice/AH6OwkHvann2VVj9HM

Do you think this would EVER be allowed in Germany? I assume you are
German by the name. Germany is my country just as yours, I just don't
like to identify with any nation, I am human only. Ich spreche
Deutsch.

Why Germany did not condemn Nazis in Ukraine? That would be quite
rational if we know that laws in Germany would put those guys in
prison for showing swastika only.

> I am extremely curious how to want to do that.

Talking more, means talking in time. Germany knew it. Poland knew
it. US financed those Nazis. We did not say anything. We are less
informed.

We have to build our system on the planet so that we can be well
informed in time and that we can communicate in time to solve
problems.

Just like little children, if you have 1 child, there will be no fight
with others, but if you have 3, they will report on each other to
parents, if they report, parent can understand situation and talk to
each of them. If they don't report, children keep fighting each other
preventing them to understand each other.

> I am saying a country that has been attacked by a war of aggression
> (which by the way you have not condemn till now) have all the right
> to defense themselves and I find it morally right, if they ask for
> your help in form of weapons, to provide them.

A attacks B
B attacks A
now C Uwe comes and fights B because all what you know is "B fights A"

That is lack of informaiton.

Me, I don't agree to "countries" as I don't recognize none of them. I
am playing the game they made, but not recognize them.

I recognize people and their lives.

Now if you push how Russia attacked Ukraine, well... situation is not
that simple, there were many agreements for Ukrainian existence and
those agreements were broken. The law and order did not exist in
Ukraine, that is why 13000 people were killed by Ukrainian
Nazis. Russia came now to bring about law and order. And people find
it good. Inside of Ukraine, Ukrainians reporting in those Russian
controlled cities having peace, order, humanitarian aid is coming,
food is coming into supermarkets, people continue living.

> > You are judging by what you know from recent Western media.
> 
> I am not sure whom you mean, but I do receive my information from a
> couple of well respected independent source, who had won prices for its
> investigations (like Watergate etc). Some of which are:
> 
>     1. Germany: Spiegel + Zeit

>     2. UK: The guardian + The times+BBC
> 
>     3. US: Washington Post+ New York Times
> 
>     4. Israel: Haaretz.

I do not give my trust to single huge agency and believe all
information is true.

What you need to read are OSCE reports, that is more than independent
information:

Daily and spot reports from the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine | OSCE
https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports/?filters=+ds_date:([2021-01-01T00:00:00Z%20TO%202022-01-01T00:00:00Z])&solrsort=ds_date%20desc&rows=10

Apropos Spiegel:

https://newcoldwar.org/der-spiegel-reports-growing-number-germans-internationals-joining-ukraines-neo-nazi-azov-battalion/

> > In regards to Putin, what you don't know is that Ukrainians have been
> > bombing Ukrainians and Russians inside of Ukraine so much long before
> > this apparently "sudden" invasion from February 2022. Please research,
> > so that we talk about same background.
> 
> I did, there was and is *NO* excuse for a full scale war of
> aggression.

I agree with above statement though what I don't agree is that you are
talking about that now, but for last 8 years you were uninformed

> The same sort of argument was used by Hitler to put pressure to
> conquer Czechoslovakia and finally after the Munich agreement to
> invade the remaining Czech republic. This sort of wars are always to
> «defend» something or prevent an attack, like Germany in 1914 or
> Hitler in 1941 with Russia. History is full of these excuses.

You are mistaken, though I agree to the above, but you are mistaken
here. This is war against Nazis in Ukraine. 

> > As if you are for justice, really for justice, then please understand
> > that people were dying in Ukraine by Ukrainian forces before Russian
> > moved any tank towards Ukrainian border. Are you aware of the actual
> > I am very very sure that you do not know what you are talking
> > about. 
> 
> A pure statement to invalidate my position without any hard facts! 

Uwe, that was not my intention. The facts are on OSCE reports. And
that I told you that you did not know about Ukrainians dying, that was
not meant to invalidate your position.

I find your position rational and logic according to information you
know.

Would you know more information, I am sure your rationality would be
different.

Did you act like this before 10 months? Before 6 months? Before 3
months? 

You did not. This is because you have not read OSCE reports and
because media in Germany did not tell you about killings in Ukraine.

> Is this the sort of brilliant arguments you want to use to convince
> me?? (remember defending your attitude talk is always better and it
> is rational for the Ukraine to trust Putin and to disarm.

I do not state that above.

But I would state, it is very rational at this moment of our planetary
development to start making agreements how to demilitarize each other. 


-- 
Jean

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