Re: no to war in Ukraine

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 11-a horo kaj 52:16 CET 
tomas@tuxteam.de a écrit :
> It is NOT OK to unleash a monster thread about that, where
> about three to four people (you know who you are) monopolize
> bandwith

that’s stretched: mail is notoriously economous

> Were I the list admin, I'd already kicked you out until your
> temper cools down. Luckily I am not.
> 
> Please, pretty please: take this to emacs-tangents.

good an’ effective replyto :'D

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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I’m redirecting this part of thread to tangent because this doesn’t have anything to do with 
emacs but with psychological solidarity (we all need to help each other the most possible 
during these times) with our community (and although it indeed is help to gnu emacs 
users’ it’s so… tangentially!)

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 18:28 CET Jacob Hrbek a écrit :
>  > There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are
>  > 
> 
> almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.  --
> Gutov
 
> I am slav with lot of russians and ukrainians friends you can't even 
> imagine how much this hurts me to do this as someone who loves and uses
> 
> Free Software in everything and who hates restrictions on privacy and
> freedom and who is endlessly appreciate of all the work that russian
> citizens did for Free Software and for me like all the helping that i
> got with issues including kindness of submitting a patches for a
> problems that i had, because I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental
> health is in absolute shit and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a
> day since the war started blaming myself for all the work that i've
> done on Free Software and in Free Software Activism in the last ~14
> years, because my work in Free Software contributed to the capability
> of russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of my brothers
> and sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing war
> crimes against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at
> their homes.

That’s true not only for you but for any technical, scientifical, economical, etc. progress, 
unfortunately.  We can’t control everything… 

And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe almost only responsible is 
Putin, everyone else was lied to or threatened.

>  > And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are 
> 
> anti-war protests all around the world, including Moscow and 
> Saint-Petersburg. -- Gutov
> 
> Russian citizens have a major role in this war i know the cost of 
> opposing putin in russia some of my family even experienced it first 
> hand in what happened before the Velvet Revolution in Czechia, but it's
> no where near the cost that ukrainians are paying right now.

That’s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to people far away is difficult, especially 
when a such war would have been difficult to predict in advance, and totally 
ununderstandable once it happened… it’s totally useless shit… Putin has just got mad.

Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easier psychologically than sitting 
in despair giving up… Ukrainians are showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, 
although in front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to surrender in front 
of a higher power…

And during that time russians soldiers entering ukraine are discovering they were lied to 
and that ukrainians are freeer than them.  Some ukrainians already surrended (which, in 
front of bigger country, with no help, i can understand), but we still have to wait for the 
inevitable time a great part of russian army will surrender too.  It’s been almost all days 
since first day that almost no progress have been made by them, although russia is so 
much more enormous and rich than ukraine, and has so many military capabilities.  This is 
rejoying.

i don’t understand why nato doesn’t take the risk being bombed to help ukrainians.  
Ukrainians are not bombed right now, and I don’t believe the risk to be unjustly and 
exageratedly bombed is worth the cost of not being able to stand for freedom.  It would be 
also interesting to learn how ineffective, unreliable, old, etc. has the russian nuclear 
bombing program got.  If wide enough, it must implies many operators, and many of them 
must be able to circumvent censorship to discover they must disobey and save us too.

> Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole
> world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians
> overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more
> people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose
> their leader to do it.

I’m part of those increasing number of ppl believing protests are getting more and more 
useless as people forgot what to do next, and leaders acknowledged that…

What should be needed would be to send material help there, money, maybe even to rob 
the states and rich in each country for that, and for russians to block anything materially 
providing for russian army or state controlled medias…

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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it annoys me to me to say this as i hate US culture, but If it was me 
then i would take trucks and cars to make a convoy all over the country 
as just small number of people can have a major impact as it was seen in 
canada recently..

I don't believe that being peaceful has any meaning in russia so be 
violent break property, set cars on fire, make makeshift road blocks 
disrupt economy anything is better then nothing, the more you do the 
more likely it gets for people all over russia and belarus to do the same.

On 2/27/22 12:45, Alexandre Garreau wrote:
>
> I’m part of those increasing number of ppl believing protests are 
> getting more and more useless as people forgot what to do next, and 
> leaders acknowledged that…
>
-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> threatened.

I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
be the cause. But it is not cause.

You have to review history of Ukraine and how Germany installed
organizations back in time, history of anti-semitism in Ukraine,
including history of Ukrainian Nazism. Since Germany wanted to
overthrow emperor of Russia back in time, Ukraine is used by western
forces as place for fighting. People have been suffering in that area
for decades while politicians in other countries only care to
influence Russia through conflicts in Ukraina.

I do not condone ANY war. I am against any wars.

> That’s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to people far
> away is difficult, especially when a such war would have been
> difficult to predict in advance, and totally ununderstandable once
> it happened… it’s totally useless shit… Putin has just got mad.

It was maybe for you individually difficult to predict. It was planned
and manipulated since many years by West in order to minimize power of
East. Ukrainian Nazis have been sponsored by US congress. Why would US
congress sponsor Ukrainian Nazis? Of course with purpose to manipulate
political situations in other countries. 

I see and take US presidents, US congress, Western politicians and
Putin; all together; and Ukrainian politicians and their neglect of
legality in their own country as accountable for what is going on in
Ukraine, as they have made that scenario. 

More references for people to get better understanding of recent
history in Ukraine:

US Congress stops funding for Ukraine's war-criminal, neo-Nazi Azov Battalion -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net
https://www.sott.net/article/350064-US-Congress-stops-funding-for-Ukraines-war-criminal-neo-Nazi-Azov-Battalion

The Terrorists Among US11 Azov Battalion and American Congressional Support | The Vineyard of the Saker
https://thesaker.is/the-terrorists-among-us11-azov-battalion-and-american-congressional-support/

Canadian Armed Forces providing military training to Ukrainian neo-Nazis - World Socialist Web Site
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/12/03/uknz-d03.html

Praise Of Ukrainian Neo-Nazi Battalion Given Green Light By Facebook: Intercept | ZeroHedge
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/praise-ukrainian-neo-nazi-battalion-given-green-light-facebook-intercept

Azov Battalion - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Collaboration in German-occupied Ukraine - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine#Ukrainian_National_Committee

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem | Reuters
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY

> Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easier
> psychologically than sitting in despair giving up… Ukrainians are
> showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, although in
> front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to
> surrender in front of a higher power…

Majority of Ukrainians DO NOT WANT criminals such as terrorists of
Azov Battalion operating in their country. Thus "freedom" is related
to peace, and that peace has been sabotaged over and over again from
inside of Ukraine.

Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces - Amnesty International
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

When you look at the situation which is taking place without looking
into history and background, then of course one will come to such
conclusions related to solidarity, freedom, Puting is bad and so
on. That is all logical.

But if you look into history and information on what is really going
on and which crime have been committed in Ukraine by those Neo-Nazis
and that their justice system does not protect people -- then one can
understand that other country such as Russia comes to help. I do not
condone neither approve that kind of "help" -- but what is sure is
that Western countries approved Neo-Nazis, supported them financially
with the help to destabilize Russia, with the intend to install NATO
in Ukraine; and Western politicians DID NOTHING to help victims of
Neo-Nazis. Amnesty International cannot do it alone. 

Now Putin comes to "save people" -- what is there so much different
than what US did in Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, and many other countries?

I do not condone war, I am for peace. But when you reason, then take
all facts in consideration.

> i don’t understand why nato doesn’t take the risk being bombed to
> help ukrainians.  

Russia as country does not attack Ukrainians. Definitely not. There
are innocent victims and I do not approve of that. War is the worse
insanity on the planet. How I see the situation, Russia is "helping"
the fellow new nation -- and it seem to me not possible that Russian
military wants to attack Ukrainian people as such; they have their
targets and this I understand, but Russia and Ukraine are so much
connected, I could even say they are so much similar to each other and
share culture and history. Their families are intertwined. I never was
thinking of Ukrainian people as being so much different from
Russians. It is very hard for me to think that "Russia" attacks
"Ukrainian" for reasons of being Ukrainian. 

What I see is that Russia is concerned for crimes in Ukraine not being
handled by Ukrainian themselves; now they have military intervention.

That Uganda has sent recently troops in Congo to fight rebels is very
similar situation; one could simply say that Uganda occupied parts of
Congo with purpose to exterminate rebels; and world is not talking
about it. But why? Because it does not help the Western politics;
Russia is not close to Congo; there is no purpose for US and NATO to
get into it. There is no benefit neither interest. Though situation is
quite similar. And people in Congo welcome Ugandan military
intervention, they have got enough of terrorism.

So it is in Ukraine, there are thousands of people in Ukraine
welcoming the intervention and fight against internal terrorism.

> What should be needed would be to send material help there, money,
> maybe even to rob the states and rich in each country for that, and
> for russians to block anything materially providing for russian army
> or state controlled medias…

Law and order is what is needed. Ukrainian politicians internally have
to commit to law and order, to respect human rights without
discrimination. Would that be enacted, there would be no military
intervention now.

And I repeat, I am against any war, and I like Russians and Ukrainian
equally; and any refugee is free to ask me for accommodation.

Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Max Brieiev]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> be the cause. But it is not cause.

I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
land.

It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are on
our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our freedom. This is
as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had never been before the
war started.

Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed as
you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other European
countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion propaganda. There are
some nazi groups, of course, but they are not prominent at all.

Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Those cities
are right to the Russian border, like less than 100 kms. Those are
cities, where the majority speaks Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops
have very hard times to conquere *any* of those cities. They thought
they would be welcomed here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed
with molotov coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this
nazi bullshit.

Zelensky is a jew, and he is a native Russian speaker. So whom are they
going to liberate here, if a Russian speaking jew is our president?

That is all I wanted to say. I am not going to comment all other
nonsense of your lengthy post.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:01]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> 
> I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
> complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
> Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
> land.

That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda?

That "political situation is more complicated than person stated" --
that is propaganda?

That we shall accuse Putin solely for conflict -- is propaganda?

You my friend you twist words. That is my opinion, not propaganda. I
have no resources to make any propaganda, neither I am hired by
Ukrainian nor Russians, neither related directly or indirectly, apart
from my grandgrandfather who was Ukrainian.

And of course nobody likes war. I have used "save" or "help" under
quotes to indicate a meaning, meaning that I am quoting it and not
necessarily condining it. I have stated multiple times for people not
to misunderstand me that I am against any wars.

Communication is the key.

People lack communication skills and negotiation skills. 

Little friendship and love can solve it all.

> It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are
> on our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our
> freedom. This is as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had
> never been before the war started.

Then you must be very young person. 

Thinking in simplicities is what said propaganda wants you to do. Take
young boys and die for country.

Shit.

I recommend you and your family to depart, situation will be better,
Russia will not take Ukraine, but don't participate in bloody war for
patriotic reasons. Defend your family by putting them in safe place.

> Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed as
> you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other
> European countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion
> propaganda. There are some nazi groups, of course, but they are not
> prominent at all.

And I am the one spreading propaganda? LOL 🤓

> Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Those
> cities are right to the Russian border, like less than 100
> kms. Those are cities, where the majority speaks
> Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops have very hard times to
> conquere *any* of those cities. They thought they would be welcomed
> here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed with molotov
> coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this nazi
> bullshit.

Maybe that is the problem that nobody took shit of this nazi bullshit
in time. 

I see my friend, you are biased. 

Do you want to say that Amnesty International did not well research
before they published this:

Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces - Amnesty International
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

Do you want to say that human rights abuses in Ukraine are none? That
it is nothing, never happened?

And that would imply that Putin is really mad men and is now coming to
attack Ukraine for which real reason? You tell us please.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 13-a horo kaj 31:21 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:01]:
> > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
> > > to
> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> > 
> > I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
> > complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
> > Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
> > land.
> 
> That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda?

Yes.  When something is obvious, and you bring misplaced skepticism without any 
contradiction of the facts in front of you, nor sufficient justification for your position. it is.

> That "political situation is more complicated than person stated" --
> that is propaganda?

Yes.  If I come to a Shoah memorial and started saying, without any justification nor 
explanation «you know, the situation for nazis is more complicated than you stated» it will 
be just neonazi propaganda.

> That we shall accuse Putin solely for conflict -- is propaganda?

You said the opposite, that we «shall not».

> You my friend you twist words. That is my opinion, not propaganda. I
> have no resources to make any propaganda, neither I am hired by
> Ukrainian nor Russians, neither related directly or indirectly, apart
> from my grandgrandfather who was Ukrainian.

Propaganda does not have to be paid or hired.  Propaganda is from latin and initially 
refered to the popagation of christian ideas.  Then it was by the East bloc.  Neither of these 
propagandas ever were capitalist, based on money or hiring.

> And of course nobody likes war. I have used "save" or "help" under
> quotes to indicate a meaning, meaning that I am quoting it and not
> necessarily condining it. I have stated multiple times for people not
> to misunderstand me that I am against any wars.

That’s why it doesn’t mean anything to just state that.  Saying you don’t like, condone it, or 
you are against it, is of no value in front of saying otherwise than the worldwide majority 
opposing it with no proof, bringing unjustified skepticism.  You need proofs or rational 
criticism of the facts that weren’t enough to convince you to explain the suspension of your 
judgement.

> Communication is the key.
> 
> People lack communication skills and negotiation skills.
> 
> Little friendship and love can solve it all.
> 
> > It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are
> > on our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our
> > freedom. This is as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had
> > never been before the war started.
> 
> Then you must be very young person.
> 
> Thinking in simplicities is what said propaganda wants you to do. Take
> young boys and die for country.
> 
> Shit.
> 
> I recommend you and your family to depart, situation will be better,
> Russia will not take Ukraine, but don't participate in bloody war for
> patriotic reasons. Defend your family by putting them in safe place.

That’s not even for patriotism alone.

> > Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed as
> > you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other
> > European countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion
> > propaganda. There are some nazi groups, of course, but they are not
> > prominent at all.
> 
> And I am the one spreading propaganda? LOL 🤓

Even thinking it’s slightly bigger, it’s not on a different scale.  far right has progressed 
everywhere in europe including russia.  the problem is also worse in poland and russia 
than, say czechia, and yet czechs are more afraid now.

> > Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Those
> > cities are right to the Russian border, like less than 100
> > kms. Those are cities, where the majority speaks
> > Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops have very hard times to
> > conquere *any* of those cities. They thought they would be welcomed
> > here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed with molotov
> > coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this nazi
> > bullshit.
> 
> Maybe that is the problem that nobody took shit of this nazi bullshit
> in time.

Or simply this doesn’t have anything to do with it anymore and you are stretching your 
conclusions past the point your reasons were enough to justify them respecting occam’s 
razor.

> I see my friend, you are biased.

Or the other way around.

I really wonder how is it possible that the only ever people I saw supporting russia that way 
are indians… yet india stated to be just as neutral as many other countries I’m not 
hearing… what are TV and local medias in your place saying about this? I’m curious

> Do you want to say that Amnesty International did not well research
> before they published this:
> 
> Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian
> volunteer forces - Amnesty International
> https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoin
> g-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

That was long ago, and ukrainian invasion is now, not eight years ago.

> Do you want to say that human rights abuses in Ukraine are none? That
> it is nothing, never happened?

There are regularely human rights abuses in france and that’d be no reason to send foreign 
armies there, as starting war usually INCREASE human right abuse.

Btw there are even more human right abuses in Russia.


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Philip Kaludercic]

Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:

> Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 13-a horo kaj 31:21 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
>> * Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:01]:
>> > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
>> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
>> > > to
>> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
>> > 
>> > I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
>> > complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
>> > Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
>> > land.
>> 
>> That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda?
>
> Yes.  When something is obvious, and you bring misplaced skepticism without any 
> contradiction of the facts in front of you, nor sufficient justification for your position. it is.

It seems to me that people who are not familiar with the situation and
cannot experience the events directly (because of linguistic,
geographical and technical reasons, say how media is automatically
curated on a lot of modern platforms) have a reasonable excuse to remain
sceptical by default.  I'd consider it harmful, if this were to be
conflated with bad intentions.

-- 
	Philip Kaludercic

why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Alexandre Garreau]

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> And that would imply that Putin is really mad men and is now coming to
> attack Ukraine for which real reason? You tell us please.

Because russians are so tired of him and he’s getting old and afraid of loosing control, so 
he launches his last card and plays everything in.

Ukraine, along with Finland and Sweden (which he threatened too) are worrying 
counterexample of liberalism and better situation to most of russians.  And most of 
russians are aware of this.

Moreover: speaking russian in ukraine is easy, many people understand russian there (I 
keep hearing that russian propaganda stating people are being threatened for speaking 
russian there is wrong, from mostly russians leaving there; and to have mostly spoke 
russian myself in ukraine i can confirm); if a russian moves there, not only they can keep 
speaking their language, but they can most easily learn the local one as it is most similar, 
pretty easy and even somewhat more regular and rational.

So that WAS a really nice place, and the easiest one, for russians to escape.  The conflict 
since its beginning (before war) is itself is a mere excuse to avoid that to happen (as 
russian men has been forbidden to go there before).  There is to some degree hypocrit 
collaboration between russian and ukrainian elites (who btw both have stakes and 
properties and capital in each others’ country) for that sake: artificially separating as much 
as possible two countries with so friendly and similar people with each other.  There have 
been, on both side, support to the far right, neonazis, etc.  A lot more so from putin’s side: 
most of the far rights and neonazis are funded by him in Europe.  French far right is backed 
by Putin.  Hungary and Poland, worst situations in europe, are because of Putin.  Our 
increasing commitment to methane, because of our abandonment of carbonclean nuclear 
(and also the subsequent increasing reliement on coal) is also Putin’s fault.  This is not only 
threatening Russia, Ukraine, Europe, but the whole planet’s citizens.

That was okay as long as it only meant for ukraine to give up on helping and welcoming 
russians.  Now it’s not enough anymore.  The internet is making the people increasingly 
powerful and aware of whatever freedom exists elsewhere and they could get.

The same sospokenabout situation of «if we lower taxes the powerfuls are gonna escape» 
is there happening inversely: if you help the powerful, the actual people will see it and 
wanna leave.  This always have been true, it is called migration.  Migration is a threat to 
oppression, and border its solution: a threat to freedom.  Free circulation of wealth good to 
the wealthiests and their wealth, free circulation of people good to the people and their 
freedom.

Wars, soldiers, militaries, aggressions, these all reinforce borders.

What inspired me mostly: https://nitter.fdn.fr/jmkorhonen/status/1496047631969234944[1] 

Please remember we have to keep in favor of freedom, and that means against aggression, 
against censorship, surveillance, proprietary software.  If you ever feel these could locally 
or temporarily used to fight oppression, you are tricked.

--------
[1] https://nitter.fdn.fr/jmkorhonen/status/1496047631969234944

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Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

I think the Ukrainian army is tied up in the East, Russia is
tied up there as well, they try to encircle the Ukrainians
from the south while pushing for Kiev for political
reasons ...

The Ukrainians have almost nothing except for their positions
in the East.

Still that doesn't explain why the Russians aren't brining in
their artillery and air force ... maybe they wait for the
encirclement to complete because at that point they expect the
enemy to capitulate?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

So the next step is to complete the encirclement of the
locked-in armies of the East, while hitting Kiev hard with
artillery from the convoy to make then surrender.

A very clever strategy ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

> So the next step is to complete the encirclement of the
> locked-in armies of the East, while hitting Kiev hard with
> artillery from the convoy to make then surrender.
>
> A very clever strategy ...

I don't think Putin is crazy as has been suggested, I think he
is a nationalist with the idea that Ukraine is a part of
Russia, and he has been building up Russia's military strength
step by step to the point he is certain they can take it,
which also has been done step by step for many years now with
this as the climax.
            
I always thought Russia would win this and I still do, I was
in denial and thought it could happen with minimal bloodshed
in the way it happened with Crimea, now bloodshed is certainly
bloody enough but if Ukrainians get sacked in the East and
surrender, and Kiev surrenders as well maybe it won't reach
the bloodiest level still if you will - for the record I still
think it is _wrong_ 100% - just from a nationalist Russian
perspective, doesn't it all makes sense even?

They can take loosing the Baltic states, they don't really
care about Central Asia, with the exception of Gruzia perhaps
but they can take it as well, but they can NOT take loosing
Belarus and Ukraine, and that's what we are seeing now?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

> So the next step is to complete the encirclement of the
> locked-in armies of the East, while hitting Kiev hard with
> artillery from the convoy to make then surrender.
>
> A very clever strategy ...

I don't think Putin is crazy as has been suggested, I think he
is a nationalist with the idea that Ukraine is a part of
Russia, and he has been building up Russia's military strength
step by step to the point he is certain they can take it,
which also has been done step by step for many years now with
this as the climax.

I always thought Russia would win this and I still do, I was
in denial and thought it could happen with minimal bloodshed
in the way it happened with Crimea, now bloodshed is certainly
bloody enough but if Ukrainians get sacked in the East and
surrender, and Kiev surrenders as well maybe it won't reach
the bloodiest level still if you will - for the record I still
think it is _wrong_ 100% - just from a nationalist Russian
perspective, doesn't it all makes sense even?

They can take loosing the Baltic states, they don't really
care about Central Asia, with the exception of Gruzia perhaps
but they can take it as well, but they can NOT take loosing
Belarus and Ukraine, and that's what we are seeing now?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Jean Louis]

Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy website.


On February 28, 2022 3:22:31 PM UTC, Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:
>> And that would imply that Putin is really mad men and is now coming
>to
>> attack Ukraine for which real reason? You tell us please.
>
>Because russians are so tired of him and he’s getting old and afraid of
>loosing control, so 
>he launches his last card and plays everything in.
>
>Ukraine, along with Finland and Sweden (which he threatened too) are
>worrying 
>counterexample of liberalism and better situation to most of russians. 
>And most of 
>russians are aware of this.
>
>Moreover: speaking russian in ukraine is easy, many people understand
>russian there (I 
>keep hearing that russian propaganda stating people are being
>threatened for speaking 
>russian there is wrong, from mostly russians leaving there; and to have
>mostly spoke 
>russian myself in ukraine i can confirm); if a russian moves there, not
>only they can keep 
>speaking their language, but they can most easily learn the local one
>as it is most similar, 
>pretty easy and even somewhat more regular and rational.
>
>So that WAS a really nice place, and the easiest one, for russians to
>escape.  The conflict 
>since its beginning (before war) is itself is a mere excuse to avoid
>that to happen (as 
>russian men has been forbidden to go there before).  There is to some
>degree hypocrit 
>collaboration between russian and ukrainian elites (who btw both have
>stakes and 
>properties and capital in each others’ country) for that sake:
>artificially separating as much 
>as possible two countries with so friendly and similar people with each
>other.  There have 
>been, on both side, support to the far right, neonazis, etc.  A lot
>more so from putin’s side: 
>most of the far rights and neonazis are funded by him in Europe. 
>French far right is backed 
>by Putin.  Hungary and Poland, worst situations in europe, are because
>of Putin.  Our 
>increasing commitment to methane, because of our abandonment of
>carbonclean nuclear 
>(and also the subsequent increasing reliement on coal) is also Putin’s
>fault.  This is not only 
>threatening Russia, Ukraine, Europe, but the whole planet’s citizens.
>
>That was okay as long as it only meant for ukraine to give up on
>helping and welcoming 
>russians.  Now it’s not enough anymore.  The internet is making the
>people increasingly 
>powerful and aware of whatever freedom exists elsewhere and they could
>get.
>
>The same sospokenabout situation of «if we lower taxes the powerfuls
>are gonna escape» 
>is there happening inversely: if you help the powerful, the actual
>people will see it and 
>wanna leave.  This always have been true, it is called migration. 
>Migration is a threat to 
>oppression, and border its solution: a threat to freedom.  Free
>circulation of wealth good to 
>the wealthiests and their wealth, free circulation of people good to
>the people and their 
>freedom.
>
>Wars, soldiers, militaries, aggressions, these all reinforce borders.
>
>What inspired me mostly:
>https://nitter.fdn.fr/jmkorhonen/status/1496047631969234944[1] 
>
>Please remember we have to keep in favor of freedom, and that means
>against aggression, 
>against censorship, surveillance, proprietary software.  If you ever
>feel these could locally 
>or temporarily used to fight oppression, you are tricked.
>
>--------
>[1] https://nitter.fdn.fr/jmkorhonen/status/1496047631969234944


Jean

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Max Brieiev]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy website.

You made some big statements as well about justification of invasion
into Ukraine.

You accuse Ukraine of complex political situation. My friend, Ukraine is
the most democratic country of the former USSR. Not only that, Ukraine
is doing good progress in eliminating corruption, just check
Transparency International reports since 2014. The whole country is
being reformed after 2014 revolution, despite huge resources are being
drained into the conflict in the east. Zelensky was elected by 72% of
voters. What is so complex about that? He is a jew and he is native
Russian speaker. How could nazi allow that? Maybe your nazi proclaims
are just a myth?

Look at the Russian mercenaries of Wagner group, who are serving Russian
government. Just google for it and their leader Dmitry Utkin. Those are
true nazis! And they are here right now, in Ukraine, fighting Ukrainian
people. True "liberators"!

Ukraine has some disgraceful past of World War II period, related to
Polish people. That is true. This was a tragedy and I am ashamed of
it. But how can you link the events of WW2 to the current time, saying
that things are the same?  Also, this is not Poland, who is attacking
Ukraine, but Russia.

All your references are about the conflict in 2014. The war is not only
about battles. It is also the time, when marauders and criminals are
doing their nasty things. This was the time when Russia invaded Crimea
and Donbass region, just a couple days after euromaidan succeded, a
total mess, we had no government, no army, nothing!

And so I see your words as misinformation or propaganda, most Ukrainians
don't share your views. There can't be any justification for
invasion. You are blurring the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine, and
Ukrainian people are giving their lives at this very moment.

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Jean Louis]

* Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-03-01 11:43]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy website.
> 
> You made some big statements as well about justification of invasion
> into Ukraine.

No, I have not given ANY justifications to invasion of Ukraine. For
that reason I have constantly repeated that I am against the war. I am
for transparency of information, and not biased blaming.

The reason why I participate in that political discussion is only to
point out to biased blaming on Russia. 

> You accuse Ukraine of complex political situation.

No, that is not what I ever said. I said that overall it is complex,
not related specifically to Ukraine.

I have not accused Ukraine, I am accusing specific politicians in
Ukraine who did nothing to stop human rights abuses in your
country. And I accuse EU and NATO who did nothing to stop human rights
abuses and killing at the time they knew it was happening.

> My friend, Ukraine is the most democratic country of the former
> USSR.

I do not say that "democratic" is something most valuable, highest
ideal; and the true word is twisted so much and abused and misused, so
I would not be able to tell who is democratic and who is not.

Though I like peace. So if Ukraine is democratic and advance country,
make some choices in your country and stop human rights abused. That
should be right, isn't it? Same should be said for Russians, they
shall stop human rights abuses and protest against war.

Here I am in under developed country, with my European values, and
here I find human rights abuse that teachers are constantly beating
and torturing children. I can do something about it, and go to
teachers and personally speak to them, I also give them warnings and I
report to relevant Ministry. I cannot do much, I have visited 3
schools so far, and will keep visiting other 50 or 100 schools. But my
work is not much comparatively.

In similar fashion, you may talk to people in your country to equally
treat all citizens and support human rights, and bring to justice
those who abused human rights.

So do something.

> Not only that, Ukraine is doing good progress in eliminating
> corruption, just check Transparency International reports since
> 2014.

Every country in the world is doing something to eliminate corruption. 

I rather support corrupted country with peace like Uganda, then one
advancing in elimination of corruption, without peace and with
internal conflicts. Ideal countries don't exist, do they? I would like
there are no countries at all and that we can leave peaceful life
without influence from others.

> The whole country is being reformed after 2014 revolution, despite
> huge resources are being drained into the conflict in the
> east. Zelensky was elected by 72% of voters. What is so complex
> about that? He is a jew and he is native Russian speaker. How could
> nazi allow that? Maybe your nazi proclaims are just a myth?

Please, my references are clear. It does not matter who was elected,
that is not relevant to the fact that Azov Battalion is involved in
human rights abuses and killings. It is later, according to online
information, included in national army of Ukraine. Criminals were
accepted in army. That happens only in corrupted countries. So there
is much more progress necessary for Ukraine to really become peaceful
country.

> Look at the Russian mercenaries of Wagner group, who are serving Russian
> government. Just google for it and their leader Dmitry Utkin. Those are
> true nazis! And they are here right now, in Ukraine, fighting Ukrainian
> people. True "liberators"!

Bad. I do not support any war, killings, that is all rough
communication with stuff like projected steel pieces, I support gentle
communication, talking with words, gentleness. Not war. Love, but not
war. 

I do not take sides. Just because you see me putting out some
references, you rush to think that I take sides. 

What I do is pointing out that information from West is biased. You
point out information from your side, so that is dialogue, and we can
understand it better. My purpose is that we don't divide each other
based on ethnicity or citizenship. I was in the war and I know
something about it. All my family members went to other countries. One
part of them came begin of 1900 from Ukraine by the way.

For any war there is no justification. War is insanity. 

We have to support each other. Not be enemies.

> Ukraine has some disgraceful past of World War II period, related to
> Polish people. That is true. This was a tragedy and I am ashamed of
> it.

You should not be. You did not do it, not in this life time. 

You are ashamed because somebody teach you about patriotism. One part
of peopel killed in Ukraine were also patriots, but they are now
dead. One day your country is for you, another day it may be against
you. You don't know that? Observe what is happening with COVID. Is it
democracy? 

OK, keep your patriotism as you wish. You have rights to it.

Me I will put any patriotism in the toilet and flus water after it.

> But how can you link the events of WW2 to the current time, saying
> that things are the same?  Also, this is not Poland, who is
> attacking Ukraine, but Russia.

You asked. So I can see the link. It is the same link as during the
time of Tsar, when Germany used Ukraine for conflict and
destabilization of Russia. That same game is now going on with US and
NATO to destabilize Ukraine.

> All your references are about the conflict in 2014. The war is not only
> about battles. It is also the time, when marauders and criminals are
> doing their nasty things. This was the time when Russia invaded Crimea
> and Donbass region, just a couple days after euromaidan succeded, a
> total mess, we had no government, no army, nothing!

I understand. But why don't you also mention events that preceded it?

I am against war. I am for peace. And I am against biased
dissemination of information.

> And so I see your words as misinformation or propaganda, most
> Ukrainians don't share your views.

Now you are the one representing them. You know them all? Did you ask
them what they think about "my view"? And then I am talking
propaganda. Be factual.

> There can't be any justification for invasion.

There is no true justification for any killing, invasion, war, etc.

There are only apparent justifications for wrongdoing. That is what
Putin does. 

> You are blurring the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine, and Ukrainian
> people are giving their lives at this very moment.

I am not blurring. My intention is opposite, for information to be
known, not to be hidden.

Here is the example of what we have in this discussion:

Imagine there is observer C, and there are parties in conflict A and
B.

1) Party A does wrong to party B.

2) Party B does wrong to party A.

3) Observer C sees that party B did something wrong to party A, and
   attacks party B. Observer did not see the act under (1).

Thus I am proposing to look into information. You are in Ukraine, but
you did not yourself research what Germany did with Ukrainians and how
they used them during Tsar. And that is same what US did to you. Now
you have got war with the nation which share language and culture with
you.

I am saying, there is third party in the conflict, and that third
party has interest in that conflict!

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Max Brieiev]

Jean,

this will be my last message to you.

Does Ukraine have human rights problems? Yes, it does.

Is it worse than in other countries? No, it isn't.

Human right organizations have free access to anywhere in Ukraine. So
watch their activity. In fact, any non-profit organizations from EU are
given massive support from government on all levels. Literally, any EU
initiative here is welcomed with open arms.

Now tell me about human right organizations in Russia. Everyone is
labeled "foreign agent" there. How much freedom do they have there?
Nonetheless, Putin is going to "liberate" Ukraine, where the situation
is much better than in Russia.

Would you say something about Wagner group? They are fighting on the
side of so called DPR/LPR. Don't you find this ironic, that real
fascists are claiming to liberate Donbass region from imaginary nazis?
Just study about their leaders! It's on wikipedia.

We share with Russia a big part of culture and history. We don't want
this war. This war is made up exclusively by Putin for the contrived
reasons.

As you may have noticed, Russian troops are not welcomed anywhere. Not
in a single vilage, not even in the most eastern parts of
Ukraine. Nobody gives a shit here about azov batallion, which by the way
has been staying in Mariupol for many years now. How many reports do
you have about human rights violations in Mariupol?

So I will repeat, you are spreading misinformation and propaganda. You
are blaming the West, but the one, who is responsible for the whole
thing is Putin.

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Jean Louis]

Dear Alexandre,

The manner how people talked on that attached video explains that
those people are very similar to each other by their culture,
tradition, language, history.

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-03-01 10:13]:
> Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 7-a horo kaj 1:01 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy
> > website.
> 
> Mine would be a conspiracy constituted of just Putin, hardly a
> conspiracy.  Heads of state have gone mad before.  Hitler first.
> You didn’t give any reference related to the general point (i’d say
> «either» if i didn’t myself, but I did, and you ignored it).  I even
> have videos showing killed civilians or totally clueless russian
> soldiers, dunno who you have materially.

You mentioned many things, how Putin finances this and that. Come on.

Is it related to Emacs any more, I don't know. 

Here is reference related to world scenarios and how such scenarios
strengthen economy for their benefits:
https://rcdrun.com/files/world/2020/04/rockefeller-foundation.pdf

Though there are old scenarios such as wars. Research.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

War is bad [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[dick]

"I" == inasprecali@disroot.org writes:

I> You grossly misunderstand what this "war" you speak of was about all
I> along.  The goal is not merely becoming the "default configuration",
I> whatever you mean by that, the goal is ending the existence of
I> proprietary software.  There is still a long way to go.

I agree.  The first thing we ought to do is discontinue GNU Emacs
support for MacOS and Windows.  More justice, less work.  A win-win you
might say.

Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

Can people please move this discussions elsewhere? It is off-topic for
this list, it is off-topic for the GNU project.  This isn't even a
tangent, it is just not suitable here.

This has nothing to do with picking sides, the GNU project, GNU Emacs,
only concern with what they do -- thats it.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6262 bytes --]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > threatened.
> 
> I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> be the cause. But it is not cause.

I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like some high officials, 
generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on the other hand, i have the hidden hope 
many russian militaries, both low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in 
order to save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not (he perfectly 
looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to «Putin and the absence of democracy».

It is always «more complicated», but it doesn’t mean the stance has to be.

> You have to review history of Ukraine and how Germany installed
> organizations back in time, history of anti-semitism in Ukraine,
> including history of Ukrainian Nazism.

I know it’s kinda worse than here, but everytime I speak to ukrainians about it, it looks like 
it isn’t.  So I guess this must be more complicated than that, up to the point it’s not that 
relevant anymore.

> I do not condone ANY war. I am against any wars.

but saying that is not sufficient when in contrast with the context you seem to

> > That’s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to people far
> > away is difficult, especially when a such war would have been
> > difficult to predict in advance, and totally ununderstandable once
> > it happened… it’s totally useless shit… Putin has just got mad.
> 
> It was maybe for you individually difficult to predict. It was planned
> and manipulated since many years by West in order to minimize power of
> East. Ukrainian Nazis have been sponsored by US congress. Why would US
> congress sponsor Ukrainian Nazis?

Because they are stupid, they also sponsored daesh to get rid of war with alqaida, alqaida, 
nazis and talibans to get rid of communists, etc. and each time it turned back against 
them.  «Why would they» is no proof, mere help to imagination of new hypothesis.  Keep in 
mind Hanlon’s razor. 



> I see and take US presidents, US congress, Western politicians and
> Putin; all together;

All together with south america, whole europe and great parts of Asia.  Not forgetting 
almost no countries support the war, they mostly stay neutral or ignore the situation, for 
the rest.

> More references for people to get better understanding of recent
> history in Ukraine:

Azov bataillion is one batailion.  It is a shame it has been officially tolerated and integrated, 
but in times of war of aggression even I wouldn’t be picky about support.  and a mere 
batailion is no excuse for attacking kyiv.  not for taking so many cities.  and certainly NOT 
for bombing.  Bombing necessarily is the risk of killing civilians (i have friends who had 
friends killed by a mere shockwave from a different building), and cannot be seen as a 
mere «attack under the bad guys», it is necessarily an indirect attack on a whole country.  
If you advocate to care for civilians, you never bomb inside cities.  If you advocate to spare 
innocent lives (for instance conscripted, internship or young soldiers) you don’t bomb 
places with any human around.

There have already been bombing and killed civilians, so you’d need a really really really 
obvious and enormous justification for that, and you have none.

> > Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easier
> > psychologically than sitting in despair giving up… Ukrainians are
> > showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, although in
> > front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to
> > surrender in front of a higher power…
> 
> Majority of Ukrainians DO NOT WANT criminals such as terrorists of
> Azov Battalion operating in their country.

Before the conflict I would say «right», since the rise of far right I would say «idk», since 
beginning of war I’m pretty sure they totally don’t care.

> Thus "freedom" is related
> to peace,

Actually I disagree. Freedom, such as democracy, best operates in continuous (but 
nonviolent) conflict.

> Now Putin comes to "save people" -- what is there so much different
> than what US did in Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, and many other countries?

None, and it is not hard to find people, even in US, opposing those wars of the US.

Btw it is already a sad and hard fact more russians have now been killed than over 5 years 
in syria, this is a good metrics they were lied to, and that ukrainians are not welcoming 
them.  it’s not only azov that did that.


> > i don’t understand why nato doesn’t take the risk being bombed to
> > help ukrainians.
> 
> Russia as country does not attack Ukrainians. Definitely not. There
> are innocent victims and I do not approve of that.

that’s a normal consequence of bombing, if they didn’t want that they wouldn’t bomb

> Their families are intertwined.

that’s why it’s so hard and painful

> I never was
> thinking of Ukrainian people as being so much different from
> Russians. It is very hard for me to think that "Russia" attacks
> "Ukrainian" for reasons of being Ukrainian.

it is putin’s army who attack the ukrainians that putin told to attack, based on lies

> What I see is that Russia is concerned for crimes in Ukraine not being
> handled by Ukrainian themselves; now they have military intervention.
> 
> That Uganda has sent recently troops in Congo to fight rebels is very
> similar situation; one could simply say that Uganda occupied parts of
> Congo with purpose to exterminate rebels;

but the question is always «is congo officially fighting back against uganda?».

also no consent has ever been asked to russians for this war, and most of russians are 
against it. that’s largely sufficient alone to be against it.


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 12026 bytes --]

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-28 17:42]:
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > > threatened.
> > 
> > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> 
> I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like some high officials, 
> generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on the other hand, i have the hidden hope 
> many russian militaries, both low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in 
> order to save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not (he perfectly 
> looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to «Putin and the absence of democracy».

I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to
your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should
rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the
Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women
could not vote).

The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and
that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject
of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including
the war.

If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy",
that would include the protection of citizen by those who make
harm. The absence of democracy is thus not related only to
Russia, but it is related to Ukraine, and especially to
foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation
and bring about the war that is taking place right now. I have
given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was
financing the Azov Battalion, and we can see today which
countries are sending military weapons and which countries
supported the escalation from beginning.

Yes, situation is much more complex than we think. It goes
back into history, and one can see that there was always third
party that escalated conflicts in Ukraine. This war is a
consequence of manipulation and influence by third parties
into the politics of Ukraine.

Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue
you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each
other.

> I know it's worse than here, but everytime I speak to ukrainians about it, it looks like 
> it isn't.  So I guess this must be more complicated than that, up to the point it's not that 
> relevant anymore.

As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand
relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them
and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas
war. 

If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and
order. And that means respecting human rights and handling
crimes in the country. That is what Germany, Austria, Norway,
France, Spain, do in their countries. They do respect human
rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice
system is there that helps to stabilize it. That is why we can
see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the
resistance and protection by government and by common people
who cannot be sold on those stories. 

Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they
are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings.

And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well,
there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human
rights abuses.

Compare it, it is comparable. We speak of absence of
democracy. I don't know if true democracy is really there in
Germany, but Germany does handle their Nazis and does not
allow that what Ukrainian government did allow to themselves.

Logical consequence is that some party like Russia will stand
on the side of victims, so they did in past several times. 

And I am sure there were ways for Russia to stand on side of
human rights without war. There are always ways. 

The major undisputable fact is that human rights abuses went
unhandled in Ukraine, despite all kinds of warnings and
reports. It is also fact that neither US nor EU did anything
to prevent atrocities committed there against its own
citizens, all based on ethnicity.

Fact is that atrocities were not public enough. Would there be
no Wikipedia page on it, it would be very difficult to provide
references to uninformed people. 

Thus the world does not know.

Like what my Swedish friend said, war is wrong and let us now
cut off Russia. But that viewpoint is uninformed. Problem is
not just in Russian politics or in Putin. Problem is that tens
of thousands of people died because of lack of law and order
in Ukraine, and lack of democratical (modern civilized)
measures to prevent human rights abuses and killings. By
cutting off Russia, we do not help Ukrainian citizens who
suffered and continue to suffer in the country without law and
order.

And that is why the wish for independency of those 2 parts in
Ukraine.

I can understand that. You treat me bad, and I will depart
from you. It is the same feeling for individuals and for
groups.

Problem is not in Russia, problem is in all of us NOT BEING
ALERTED ENOUGH that people are killed all over the world. We
have Internet but we did not organize global emergency system
to do something when killings start.

We speak of Ukraine because it is in the news. Innocent people
are dying in Africa due to invasion and occupations all the
time, but because we are not straight informed through media,
we don't do nothing about it. There is no discussion on this
mailing list on how many innocent civilians died in Congo in
last few months. This is because West has interest in Ukraine,
they don't have interest in remote areas of the world. It is
not about humanity, it is about economical interests.

Though peacemakers can put focus on handling human rights
issues in times and be strict on that timely, as that may
prevent wars.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 8-a horo kaj 27:39 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-28 17:42]:
> > Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > > * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > > > threatened.
> > > 
> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
> > > to
> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> > 
> > I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like
> > some high officials, generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on
> > the other hand, i have the hidden hope many russian militaries, both
> > low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in order to
> > save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not
> > (he perfectly looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to
> > «Putin and the absence of democracy».
> I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to
> your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should
> rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the
> Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women
> could not vote).
> 
> The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and
> that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject
> of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including
> the war.

Until there, ofc we agree.

> If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy",
> that would include the protection of citizen by those who make
> harm.

I don’t see how or on what ground that would.

> The absence of democracy is thus not related only to
> Russia, but it is related to Ukraine,

Ukraine is not less democratic than Russia.  It kinda is more because it is more liberal and 
it is more permitted and common to criticize leaders and do shit there.  Contrarily to russia 
where criticizing putin is harshely punished. And this is confirmed by all ppl i know in both 
russia and ukraine. 

> and especially to
> foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation

nobody has such interest, not even russia. putin just got mad.

> I have
> given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was
> financing the Azov Battalion,

so what? i have already told you that is not sufficient reason.

> and we can see today which
> countries are sending military weapons and which countries
> supported the escalation from beginning.

but putin started to attack, so it did escalate more visibly than any other.  if it was because 
of others, it would have been in their public interest to wait for the other to escalate more 
visibly and to do something visibly, obviously and publicly wrong befor eto react.

> Yes, situation is much more complex than we think.

Don’t say «yes» when you are the only one thinking like you do, it’s only contempting.

> Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue
> you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each
> other.

and I think they would, because putin is just mad at the fact he’s gonna die powerless and 
right under his nose there is a land full of people even selling toilet paper with his face on it 
(and you know what? many russians would even pay more to be allowed to get that xD)

> As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand
> relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them
> and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas
> war.

and yet putin started it

> If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and
> order.

You’re wrong.  You should first think about freedom, diversity, and conflict.

> And that means respecting human rights and handling
> crimes in the country.

the opposite of what putin ever did.

> That is what Germany, Austria, Norway,
> France, Spain, do in their countries.

no they don’t.  all too often they’re happy of human right abuses by the far right, that has 
now reached the entire political spectrum that’s represented in executive power.

not even talking of official, europeanfunded human right abuses, such as frontex, and the 
mediterannean genocide taking place right now

> They do respect human
> rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice
> system is there that helps to stabilize it.

executive system here doesn’t care about justice system anymore, and lawyers are mad at 
it but are helpless

> That is why we can
> see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the
> resistance and protection by government and by common people
> who cannot be sold on those stories.

not sufficient

> Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they
> are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings.

they don’t, and other germanic countries had mass killing.  currently we get regularely 
threatening of mass killing from our own neonazis and regularely learn that massive stocks 
of weapons and munitions are seized from… a minority of them.  but most of them 
accumulating such things have no issues and keep participating in politics and fostering 
and promoting human right abuses.

> And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well,
> there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human
> rights abuses.
 
so why are all ukrainian leftists I know more afraid from putin than from their govt or azov?

i can say that putin did his job of oppression a lot better than anything azov would be even 
capable of

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Yuri Khan]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 at 18:18, Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> wrote:

> I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental
> health is in absolute shit and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a
> day since the war started blaming myself for all the work that i've done
> on Free Software and in Free Software Activism in the last ~14 years,
> because my work in Free Software contributed to the capability of
> russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of my brothers and
> sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing war crimes
> against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at their
> homes.

One of my former colleagues once said, metaphorically: “I have made a
screwdriver. It can drive a screw, or it can be poked into an eye.”
The point being, don’t blame yourself for misuse/abuse of the tools
you make.

> >> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> >> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> >> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> >> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> >> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> >> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

I might not have got it right, but if you’re thinking of denying
access by citizenship, that’s awfully misguided.

Our [Russian] government does that kind of thing. “This web site here
has a page that contains banned information. Since TLS protects the
exact URL from being seen by the Internet provider, we’re going to
deny you access to the whole site. And if your provider cannot snoop
SNI, then they can deny you access by IP address, thus including all
other sites hosted on the same server.” Along the same lines: “KMnO4
is useful as an antiseptic, but it also can be used to synthesize
narcotics or explosives, so no, you cannot buy it from your local
pharmacy.” Basically, prevention of activities that are declared
unlawful is considered a higher priority than keeping lawful use
possible, no matter the ratio of harm to usefulness.

Please consider not being like them.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > One of my former colleagues once said, metaphorically: “I have made a 
screwdriver. It can drive a screw, or it can be poked into an eye.” The 
point being, don’t blame yourself for misuse/abuse of the tools you 
make. -- Khan

Ask him if he can use a screw driver to blow up a pipeline and mass 
murdering of people that can't defend against it.

 > I might not have got it right, but if you’re thinking of denying 
access by citizenship, that’s awfully misguided. - Khan

To anyone who will enable russian government to use it.

---

Your argument that we shouldn't deny access to all free software to 
russians is valid. I am mainly concerned about things that can be used 
to do major war crimes

On 2/28/22 13:12, Yuri Khan wrote:
> One of my former colleagues once said, metaphorically: “I have made a
> screwdriver. It can drive a screw, or it can be poked into an eye.”
> The point being, don’t blame yourself for misuse/abuse of the tools
> you make.

-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> [2022-02-28 15:53]:
> Your argument that we shouldn't deny access to all free software to russians
> is valid. I am mainly concerned about things that can be used to do major
> war crimes

I think you look at wrong causes.

For products like software you cannot possibly know for what they will
be used.

And you cannot "forbid" it really. 

For example, US could produce some weapons and sell such weapons to
country X with condition NOT to sell weapons to country Y. Though
country X eventually sells it to country Y. It is difficult to forbid
selling weapons unspoken how difficult it would be to find out who
used software and under which circumstances. 

To win in the court you would need proofs, and which court will go
after whatever generals in far countries where you do not have
jurisdiction. You would need to go into that country or hire attorney
in that country to represent your copyrights, that means you would
still need to communicate to people related to bloody enemy who used
your software; then you would spend money and be subjugated to their
laws; and you would need to prove that software was used under terms
not given by you. 

Good luck with it.

However, if you do change licenses to your software, that software
becomes proprietary.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:13]:
> Our [Russian] government does that kind of thing. “This web site here
> has a page that contains banned information. Since TLS protects the
> exact URL from being seen by the Internet provider, we’re going to
> deny you access to the whole site. And if your provider cannot snoop
> SNI, then they can deny you access by IP address, thus including all
> other sites hosted on the same server.” Along the same lines: “KMnO4
> is useful as an antiseptic, but it also can be used to synthesize
> narcotics or explosives, so no, you cannot buy it from your local
> pharmacy.” Basically, prevention of activities that are declared
> unlawful is considered a higher priority than keeping lawful use
> possible, no matter the ratio of harm to usefulness.

Hmm, yes.

Though one can use proxies and VPN, right?

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-28 16:35]:
> I don't know if the Ukrainian army is really fighting back or
> not, and the invasion sure didn't look the way we expected,
> but that doesn't make it any less an invasion.
> 
> And moreover, so what? No matter how clever a scheme this
> turns out to be it is still wrong ...
> 
> RUSSIA'S WAR IS WRONG!
> 
> PS. This sure doesn't happen every day BTW. The major FOSS
>     bodies should absolutely say something, just anything
>     really with the position they/we are opposed to it!

I totally agree that war is wrong. Any war is wrong. Humans
are degraded as when compared to animals who do not organize
to kill other group of animals without reason.

Though free software is not related to conflicts in the world.

Try with parliament representatives in Sweden first, those are
closest to you, they can do something with diplomacy.

/jl/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Jean Louis wrote:

> I totally agree that war is wrong. Any war is wrong.
> Humans are degraded as when compared to animals who do not
> organize to kill other group of animals without reason.

I know! It is horrible.

> Though free software is not related to conflicts in
> the world.

The whole world is trying to isolate Russia, we should do
no less ...

> Try with parliament representatives in Sweden first, those
> are closest to you, they can do something with diplomacy.

No they are active, and I don't know if they are closer to me
than the FOSS world actually.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org> [2022-02-28 17:48]:
> > Though free software is not related to conflicts in
> > the world.
> 
> The whole world is trying to isolate Russia, we should do
> no less ...

No, we should not isolate any country. Think of people there, they are
not politicians. 

But demonstrate with your goodness how life should be. Instead of
sanctions, one should provide help. There is conflict, one shall help
parties in conflict. Not sanction any of parties.


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 12:26]:
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 5:42 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > > So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> > > maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> > > of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> > > with our ideas of freedom.
> > 
> > The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that of
> > the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides on
> > the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to continue
> > working on Emacs.
> 
> Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by the past (like 
> supporting uyghurs or dunno, other geopolitical stuff) and that doesn’t stop from software 
> freedom or contribution… to me that’s alike people stating anything personal (like «i like 
> pasta», or dunno) or humor or what in projects: at least it makes it (nonpermanently) more 
> personal and identifiable, maybe it even can increases contribution.

Imagine if humanitarian organizations such as red cross or Amnesty
International would deny their help based on ethnicity or political
opinions of people who need such help.

FSF is non-profit organization and it has social purpose to help with
free software. It does not take sides in politics of the world.

Individual members may do so. 

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Please take this discussion to emacs-tangents.  Or some even more
appropriate list (maybe gnu-misc-discuss?)

Freedom zero must be absolute, even to people whose political ideals you
disagree with.  See
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.html.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Why don't we hear _anything_ from the Ukrainian army from day
1 and still nothing?

Is it really fighting back and this has been
completely hidden?

And if it is why is it so important not to show any of it?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Max Brieiev]

Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the
scope of other Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org> writes:

> Why don't we hear _anything_ from the Ukrainian army from day
> 1 and still nothing?

What do you mean? Locals are careful not to post positions and movement
of Ukrainian forces, in order to make it harder for Russian intellisense
to detect them. Is this what you mean by "don't hear anything"?

> Is it really fighting back and this has been
> completely hidden?

Yes, it fights back quite successfully.

> And if it is why is it so important not to show any of it?

Please check r/ukraine community in reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

OK, I think it is like this the Ukrainian army is locked and
tied-up in the East, the absence of big battles is because the
Russians aren't pushing to break thru, they are just pushing
enough to lock the Ukrainians in and keep them that way, so
they use their man advantage not by having 2 units attack 1,
but by having 1 unit lock 1, and then move the +1 unit to some
other place ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Russia have now started to use artillery which was one mystery
why they didn't, another was the absence of Russian fighter
jets and attack planes which perhaps are still to come ...

The Ukrainian army has probably been tied up in the East since
the beginning of the war and can now be hit with artillery.

So now there is no telling how big a tragedy this will turn
out to be ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> OK, but have the FOSS bodies been getting together offering
> a joint statement perhaps or something to the extent of
> speaking up against this aggression which whatever political
> mumbo-jumbo one can put together will still amount to
> immeasurable human suffering?

The GNU project does not espouse political opinions unrelated to free
software.  That includes opinions about wars.  See
www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Po Lu wrote:

>> OK, but have the FOSS bodies been getting together offering
>> a joint statement perhaps or something to the extent of
>> speaking up against this aggression which whatever
>> political mumbo-jumbo one can put together will still
>> amount to immeasurable human suffering?
>
> The GNU project does not espouse political opinions
> unrelated to free software. That includes opinions about
> wars.
> See www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html.

It's a shame, pathetic.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-01 13:24]:
> I strongly condem Putin's war of agression against the Ukraine.

Me too.

> I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military.

That is insanity. To stop the war one has to do it peacefully. Not by
escalation. This war is in the interest of third parties such as US,
NATO as to minimize powers of Russia. They don't care about
victims. And victims are already many many due to their support like
you said "delivering weapons to Ukraine's military" though in the
first case it wasn't military but para-military Azov Battalion:

Azov Battalion - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Examining the Threat of the Azov Movement in Ukraine - GeoHistory
https://geohistory.today/azov-movement-ukraine/

US Congress stops funding for Ukraine's war-criminal, neo-Nazi Azov Battalion -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net
https://www.sott.net/article/350064-US-Congress-stops-funding-for-Ukraines-war-criminal-neo-Nazi-Azov-Battalion

Because of those deliveries, because of Western support, we can see
conflict in Ukraine. I am sorry for people, victims, those who died
and their families and relatives. 

I would like you say "Make love, not war" and then jointly bring EU,
Ukrainian and Russian girls with us, Emacs users -- that would be
positive way of making diplomatic relationships. 

And now we have calls for more war on the Emacs List. 

Can you just stop and propose peaceful solutions?

Is "weapon" the only mean of communication that you can propose?

Why did not you propose some diplomatic way?

How do you see your position so much more different than the one of
Putin? You support war, Putin support war. That is war. Would you be
Putin, my God, catastrophe.

> I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.

Do you also consider that such sanctions are human crime on everybody
involved in Russian system? 

Why do you support punishment of the whole population for the actions
and decisions of their politicians?

Do you understand that many people depend on banking system. 99.9999%
of those people are not related to any war. They are people living
their life. Children cannot get money from their Russian fathers.

Why do you propose escalations and use for that escalations these
mailing lists?

> I support the EU membership of the Ukraine.

For reasons of improving human rights in Ukraine, I would say yes.  EU
constitution has brought good improvements in those countries where
there was abuse of human rights. 

Though for overall reasons of globalization, I would not know. I
prefer countries like Norway, Iceland, UK, who are outside of the EU.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "JL" == Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-01 13:24]:
>> I strongly condem Putin's war of agression against the Ukraine.

> Me too.

>> I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military.

> That is insanity. To stop the war one has to do it peacefully. 

With all due respect, given the recent events that is almost unbearable.
I am not sure whether this is some kind of irony I am unable to gasp or
you are serious about this. If it is the latter, let me ask you this:

Should have Adolf Hitler also be stopped peacefully be talking?
Should the Holocaust be stopped by talking? Really?

In general, as the late Winston Churchill said, 

«blabla is better than peng peng» but there are situation where you
can't talk, because the other side simply is not listing. 

There has been talks and talks and he attacked anyway. So sure you can
give in his demands but that is like Suicide for fear of death.



> Not by escalation. This war is in the interest of third parties such
> as US, NATO as to minimize powers of Russia.

Frankly this is not true. After the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, a
lot of former members wanted to join the NATO (on good reasons, since
the Warsaw Pact was used, at least in three occasions to suppress an
insurrection(1953 east germany, 1956 Ungary, 1968 Czechoslovakia). 

That was finally granted and now they are in. (And I can now perfectly
understand the desire of the Ukraine to do the same).

I understand that Putin was upset about it. Well this is not a therapy
session to resolve his traumas. 


So to call this war

«This war is in the interest of third parties such as US, NATO as to
minimize powers of Russia.»

Is an insult to the people of the Ukraine. Shame on you.

Putin attacked without any provocation in a very similar manner as
Hitler in 1939 Poland.


Uwe Brauer 

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

They say all the time the invasion isn't going to plan, Russia
is surprised by the resistence etc etc, but how do they
know that?

Since the Russians piled up all those arms on the other side
of the border which now easily have been moved in to the war
scene wouldn't that indicate they expected they would come
to use?

I think they know the Ukrainians inside out and they don't do
this unless they are 98% certain to win.

I looks to me like the strategy is to tie up the regular
forces in the East where they were already half busy keeping
track of the separatists, now the Russians encircle further
from the South to cut them off completely while hitting the
big cities to force them to surrender, and the convoy for Kiev
- offering a HUGE target but there are no Ukrainian forces
there to hit it! - with artillery and tanks will finalize that
strategy with a huge siege ...

If this was the plan from day one - and that sounds reasonable
since they did have a plan, they always do - then to me it
looks like it is going very much in accordance with it!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Again the same stuff on Sky News [1] which I don't like:

  (1) the war isn't going Russia's way, and not going to plan
      (why not and how can they know?), and

  (2) Putin is mad - maybe so, but this in particular isn't
      madness but aggressive nationalism.
            
The Russian strategy seems to have been pretty basic all
along:

  first take out intelligence, leadership, the air force etc
  with missiles;

  then invade from the North (Belarus), the East (Donbas) and
  the South (Crimea);

  with the goal of encircling the Ukrainian forces that are
  locked-in in the East (they were already there before the
  war, fighting the separatists), the encirclement is done by
  cutting the country in half from Odessa to Kiev.

The Russian troops seem to move pretty much at will in the
countryside, then they lay siege to the cities which they
hit with all bombardment they can muster, this is the so
called "shelling" one keep hearing about (artillery
mostly), the purpose is to make people suffer more so they'll
surrender more quickly.

Because man-made obstacles have been placed on so many streets
the Russians would have to move at snail's pace if they ever
entered the cities to bring the fight there, then their
vehicles would also be easy targets to Molotov Cocktails,
maybe IEDs and even kamikaze drones ...

So instead they rely on the shelling! It is almost like
a strategy from the ancient world, very thoroughly
implemented, as cruel as efficient

[1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/.zsh/news
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Auq9mYxFEE

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-05 15:26]:
> >>> "JL" == Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > * Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-01 20:40]:
> >> > That is insanity. To stop the war one has to do it peacefully. 
> >> 
> >> With all due respect, given the recent events that is almost unbearable.
> >> I am not sure whether this is some kind of irony I am unable to gasp or
> >> you are serious about this. If it is the latter, let me ask you this:
> >> 
> >> Should have Adolf Hitler also be stopped peacefully be talking?
> >> Should the Holocaust be stopped by talking? Really?
> 
> 
> > Of course.
> 
> 
> I thought that was a rhetoric question but you took it seriously. 
> So I am curious how is this supposed to have worked.

By watching human rights abuses and having mechanism to immediately
act. Would we have fundamental principles globally established then we
could all act in time.

Example is now, the West thinks Russia is wrong and now they boykot
Russian resources. I don't have problem with it. The mechanism is
good, though problem is because we did not boykot US resources when
they attacked other countries, we also did not boykot Ukrainian
resources when they attacked Ukrainians. 

Problem is that we don't have such mechanisms in the world. Did you
see OSCE reports? For 8 years it was reported that war is in Ukraine
and media did not act to inform people, so that people get
"moved". Nobody acted, but few official organizations. Now there is
apparently for us who are not informed, "invasion" or sudden
unprovoked war. Though that is factually not so. The war was provoked
for 8 years by Nazis in Ukraine.

Are these here not Nazis?
https://pleroma.gnusocial.club/notice/AH6OwkHvann2VVj9HM

> So after the Wannensee conference 20.01.1942
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference The SS on the order
> of Adolf Hitler starts to very systematically kill all Jews they can
> find.
> 
> And you would tell Hitler what? What do you offer in exchange?

Hitler was marionette. I was in Germany and assisting to supply some
pictures, documents, so to make the book about men behind Hitler, so
we have documented it nicely. Hitler is marionette for depopulation
plans.

What you speak of 1942 began so much earlier, even back in 1800 and
1700 years. This is because our planet in general is not well
organized.

Do you know Declaration of Human Rights? Almost all countries approved
it, but almost none truly adopted it.

I don't say that Declaration of Human Rights is nicely written
document. But I say that we do not have ANY fundamental document valid
globally for all of us.

What we have is self matured system of "sovereign" countries where
each country is allowed to do what they want to their people. I don't
agree to that system.

> He keeps saying «I do not care I need to kill all Jews I can find.»

It is too late. Communication had to happen so much earlier.

> So, you wouldn't say the concept is flawed in that case because the
> other side simply refuses to find a compromise?

They would not refuse.

You can see any smaller group of people that are managed by
fundamental principles and you can see that people CAN be policed, and
I don't mean by police, but by communication.

Example are groups of children in kindergardens and schools in Europe
where teachers do not apply corporal punishment. So what do they
apply? They apply communication.

War is communication. Though lowest kind of communication and it
ALWAYS takes place when higher communication apparently failed.

You are also pointing out to the problem of talking but other side not
listening. If we think of higher civilized communication being on
scale from 1 to 10, somewhere like 5, then you are pointing to
situation something like:

1) Talking on scale of 5 to party who does not apparently listen;

2) Other party starts talking on scale of 4, and you from (1) go down
   scale to 4; or maybe scale 3; that maybe something like threats;

3) Or you think party does not listen and you go to scale of 3, 2 then
   1; that is killing, war, communication by force;

I hope you got the idea.

And I say that all is wrong.

When party does not listen, one doesn't go down, and discriminate
innocent Russian in Europe because they are Russian.

What one shall do is go scale up. Not down.

You can't talk to parties in conflict if you don't address the
conflict.

We have never done that. Some media does, some politicians they do,
but it is obviously not enough.

US and Europe did not address the conflict in Ukraine.

And now all we know is Putin and invasion, we say "stop". But because
we have never addressed the true problem, we cannot solve it. Do you
see?

You can't solve any problem until you find what the problem is.

> Well in any case let us run a simple experiment. Try to convince me by
> arguments that your right in your concept and more importantly, why it
> would be rationale for the Ukraine government to agree in being
> disarmed

As you mentioned "disarmed" you obviously do not understand the
problem. I suggest you read OSCE reports.

Daily and spot reports from the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine | OSCE
https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports/?filters=+ds_date:([2021-01-01T00:00:00Z%20TO%202022-01-01T00:00:00Z])&solrsort=ds_date%20desc&rows=10

This war is NOT about Ukraine being disarmed. That did not make any
problems to Russia until 2014 and until the illegal change of
government, as sponsored by US.

I am not on this or the other side, I am just sad that truth has not
been shown 8 years, that war was going on 8 years in Ukraine and that
West did not react.

> and trust a politician you does not keep his words (see below) and
> started a full scale war of aggression.

I see how Ukrainian politicans did not keep their promises from first
Minsk agreement. Do you see before few days they said they will make
corridor for people to pass, and they continued shelling on them.

Minsk agreement was about keeping words. This war could as well happen
before 8 years, Russia was holding despite human rights abuses in
Ukraine.

See my thread on Ukrainian Nazis here:
https://pleroma.gnusocial.club/notice/AH6OwkHvann2VVj9HM

Do you think this would EVER be allowed in Germany? I assume you are
German by the name. Germany is my country just as yours, I just don't
like to identify with any nation, I am human only. Ich spreche
Deutsch.

Why Germany did not condemn Nazis in Ukraine? That would be quite
rational if we know that laws in Germany would put those guys in
prison for showing swastika only.

> I am extremely curious how to want to do that.

Talking more, means talking in time. Germany knew it. Poland knew
it. US financed those Nazis. We did not say anything. We are less
informed.

We have to build our system on the planet so that we can be well
informed in time and that we can communicate in time to solve
problems.

Just like little children, if you have 1 child, there will be no fight
with others, but if you have 3, they will report on each other to
parents, if they report, parent can understand situation and talk to
each of them. If they don't report, children keep fighting each other
preventing them to understand each other.

> I am saying a country that has been attacked by a war of aggression
> (which by the way you have not condemn till now) have all the right
> to defense themselves and I find it morally right, if they ask for
> your help in form of weapons, to provide them.

A attacks B
B attacks A
now C Uwe comes and fights B because all what you know is "B fights A"

That is lack of informaiton.

Me, I don't agree to "countries" as I don't recognize none of them. I
am playing the game they made, but not recognize them.

I recognize people and their lives.

Now if you push how Russia attacked Ukraine, well... situation is not
that simple, there were many agreements for Ukrainian existence and
those agreements were broken. The law and order did not exist in
Ukraine, that is why 13000 people were killed by Ukrainian
Nazis. Russia came now to bring about law and order. And people find
it good. Inside of Ukraine, Ukrainians reporting in those Russian
controlled cities having peace, order, humanitarian aid is coming,
food is coming into supermarkets, people continue living.

> > You are judging by what you know from recent Western media.
> 
> I am not sure whom you mean, but I do receive my information from a
> couple of well respected independent source, who had won prices for its
> investigations (like Watergate etc). Some of which are:
> 
>     1. Germany: Spiegel + Zeit

>     2. UK: The guardian + The times+BBC
> 
>     3. US: Washington Post+ New York Times
> 
>     4. Israel: Haaretz.

I do not give my trust to single huge agency and believe all
information is true.

What you need to read are OSCE reports, that is more than independent
information:

Daily and spot reports from the Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine | OSCE
https://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports/?filters=+ds_date:([2021-01-01T00:00:00Z%20TO%202022-01-01T00:00:00Z])&solrsort=ds_date%20desc&rows=10

Apropos Spiegel:

https://newcoldwar.org/der-spiegel-reports-growing-number-germans-internationals-joining-ukraines-neo-nazi-azov-battalion/

> > In regards to Putin, what you don't know is that Ukrainians have been
> > bombing Ukrainians and Russians inside of Ukraine so much long before
> > this apparently "sudden" invasion from February 2022. Please research,
> > so that we talk about same background.
> 
> I did, there was and is *NO* excuse for a full scale war of
> aggression.

I agree with above statement though what I don't agree is that you are
talking about that now, but for last 8 years you were uninformed

> The same sort of argument was used by Hitler to put pressure to
> conquer Czechoslovakia and finally after the Munich agreement to
> invade the remaining Czech republic. This sort of wars are always to
> «defend» something or prevent an attack, like Germany in 1914 or
> Hitler in 1941 with Russia. History is full of these excuses.

You are mistaken, though I agree to the above, but you are mistaken
here. This is war against Nazis in Ukraine. 

> > As if you are for justice, really for justice, then please understand
> > that people were dying in Ukraine by Ukrainian forces before Russian
> > moved any tank towards Ukrainian border. Are you aware of the actual
> > I am very very sure that you do not know what you are talking
> > about. 
> 
> A pure statement to invalidate my position without any hard facts! 

Uwe, that was not my intention. The facts are on OSCE reports. And
that I told you that you did not know about Ukrainians dying, that was
not meant to invalidate your position.

I find your position rational and logic according to information you
know.

Would you know more information, I am sure your rationality would be
different.

Did you act like this before 10 months? Before 6 months? Before 3
months? 

You did not. This is because you have not read OSCE reports and
because media in Germany did not tell you about killings in Ukraine.

> Is this the sort of brilliant arguments you want to use to convince
> me?? (remember defending your attitude talk is always better and it
> is rational for the Ukraine to trust Putin and to disarm.

I do not state that above.

But I would state, it is very rational at this moment of our planetary
development to start making agreements how to demilitarize each other. 


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2022 12:49:25 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org
> 
> > >> Should have Adolf Hitler also be stopped peacefully be talking?
> > >> Should the Holocaust be stopped by talking? Really?
> > 
> > 
> > > Of course.
> > 
> > 
> > I thought that was a rhetoric question but you took it seriously. 
> > So I am curious how is this supposed to have worked.
> 
> By watching human rights abuses and having mechanism to immediately
> act. Would we have fundamental principles globally established then we
> could all act in time.

Please stop these off-topic discussions here.  This has nothing to do
with Emacs whatsoever.  We've had enough of that already.  There are
other forums where you can speak about this, so please take this
there.

Thanks in advance.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> [2022-03-06 20:12]:
> 
> 
> > Please stop these off-topic discussions here.  This has nothing to do
> > with Emacs whatsoever.  We've had enough of that already.  There are
> > other forums where you can speak about this, so please take this
> > there.
> 
> *Sorry*
> 
>     1. I hit the followup instead of reply button
> 
>     2. I only realized now that he does *not* use his private address
>        but bugs@gnu.support which is wired to say the least cowardly
>        could be another word.
> 
> I will immediately stop this.

I agree to stop discussion on mailing list as it is not related to
Emacs.

My private email address is bugs@gnu.support as for reason that I use
it to report bugs for GNU project and I support GNU; and I am not
representing GNU project by any mean, I support GNU project by all
means possible.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Jean Louis wrote:

> I agree to stop discussion on mailing list as it is not
> related to Emacs.

Wars of aggression should be explicitly inconsistent with the
ideals behind free software.

The FOSS bodies should declare they are opposed to this war.

The whole world is trying to isolate Russia and raise
awareness to prevent this kind of things both short and long
term. Why should the FOSS world do nothing? It doesn't make
sense to me.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From:  Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other
>  Emacs mailing lists <emacs-tangents@gnu.org>
> 
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > I agree to stop discussion on mailing list as it is not
> > related to Emacs.
> 
> Wars of aggression should be explicitly inconsistent with the
> ideals behind free software.

Once again, please stop posting off-topic messages to this list.

RE: no to war in Ukraine

[Tom Davey]

> Once again, please stop posting off-topic messages to this list.

I completely concur with Eli. Please stop. 

--
Tom Davey
tom@tomdavey.com
New York NY USA

-----Original Message-----
From: Emacs-tangents <emacs-tangents-bounces+tom=tomdavey.com@gnu.org> On
Behalf Of Eli Zaretskii
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 3:11 PM
To: Emanuel Berg <moasenwood@zoho.eu>
Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org
Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine

> From:  Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions 
> outside the scope of other  Emacs mailing lists 
> <emacs-tangents@gnu.org>
> 
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> > I agree to stop discussion on mailing list as it is not related to 
> > Emacs.
> 
> Wars of aggression should be explicitly inconsistent with the ideals 
> behind free software.

Once again, please stop posting off-topic messages to this list.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-03-01 13:51]:
> goncholden wrote:
> 
> > All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
> > noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
> > Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
> > cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
> > ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.
> 
> The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.

That is none of their business. In general, leaders of FOSS
organizations are more aware and conscious of human rights. So they
are already saying it, but not in front or in the name of their
organizations. This has been already said many times.

Organizations also consists of Russians, people have divided
opinions. 

You don't want to destroy organization for reasons of private
individual opinions being misunderstood as statement of the
organization.

> The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness any way
> and everywhere they can.

It is little late, but never late, though the whole world had to raise
awareness of what was going on inside of Ukraine, and about the actual
conflict, and to help in time; we did not help in time.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.
>
> That is none of their business. In general, leaders of FOSS
> organizations are more aware and conscious of human rights.
> So they are already saying it, but not in front or in the
> name of their organizations. This has been already said
> many times.

Disagreed, they should say so explicitly and join the rest of
the world in its strategy to isolate Russia any way we can as
a response to this and make it clear the world-view presented
by their officials and Putin is not shared or
accepted anywhere else.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-03-01 13:44]:
> Uwe Brauer wrote:
> 
> > There is a difference between a war of aggression as it has
> > been clearly the case here and other forms of war.
> >
> > So a general statement against war obscure this fact
> 
> Of course, the statement should reflect what is happening
> and be tailored to that. One would be careful about every
> word. But it is still pretty easy to do, two or three
> paragraphs would be enough, I think. It is not a PhD thesis
> analyzing the war or anything like that.

That would divide people and members of community. 

Milkman delivers milk to everybody regardless of their political
opinion. His business is about milk.

Free software organization deliver software to everybody, their
business is software. Not Putin, not Russia.

Amnesty International has purpose to protect human rights, they are
supposed to talk about it. United Nations, world government leaders,
and so on; including people and political organizations.

But don't push milkman in the war.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Jean Louis wrote:

>> Of course, the statement should reflect what is happening
>> and be tailored to that. One would be careful about every
>> word. But it is still pretty easy to do, two or three
>> paragraphs would be enough, I think. It is not a PhD thesis
>> analyzing the war or anything like that.
>
> That would divide people and members of community.

No, it wouldn't - no one is in favor of this, and certainly
not Russian programmers and FOSS people if that's what
you thought?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

Please stop arguing about Russia, Ukraine, war, and other issues that
have absolutely nothing to do with either GNU emacs or the GNU project
on this list.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

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Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 16-a horo kaj 29:04 CET goncholden 
a écrit :
> NATO is likely not to fight Russia over Ukraine.  Yet the 30-
member bloc
> is unwilling to acknowledge this truth.  By western naivity, I 
meant
> the general naivity of citizens about their governments.

we are not naive on this ground, most of us (with some exceptions 
especially among US citizens and swiss) know our government are 
not really democratic and we the people have no real power.

some power sometimes on some ground with a lot of efforts, work, 
and the chance to have policies slightly more (but decreasingly) 
liberal, that’s it

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1173 bytes --]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 3:52 AM, Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> wrote:

> Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 16-a horo kaj 29:04 CET goncholden a écrit :
>
>> NATO is likely not to fight Russia over Ukraine. Yet the 30-member bloc
>
>> is unwilling to acknowledge this truth. By western naivity, I meant
>
>> the general naivity of citizens about their governments.
>
> we are not naive on this ground, most of us (with some exceptions especially among US citizens and swiss) know our
>
> government are not really democratic and we the people have no real power.

I suppose everybody likes their current lifestyle to give it up. Free Software succeeded because people from many countries

united and made a movement out of it.

> some power sometimes on some ground with a lot of efforts, work, and the chance to have policies slightly more (but
>
> decreasingly) liberal, that’s it“

>

The EU has simply stooped oligarchs using their private jets, and disconnected them from Swift. Stopped Russian State

Representative from entering the European Parliament. And simply assisting Ukrainian Refugees is pathetic.

>

>

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