From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:51:08 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87ee3p4xn4.fsf@zoho.eu> <7f8b6dc4-a621-2ab4-86ab-79325a1f2a0c@yandex.ru> <95a64961-9a77-bd7a-a4c2-77ae3f9e5bb7@rixotstudio.cz> <5050033.Gxf8NU8Bx7@galex-713.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36833"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.0 (2022-02-12) Cc: Jacob Hrbek , emacs-tangents@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Alexandre Garreau Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 28 10:46:49 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nOccD-0009Mp-6F for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:46:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38378 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOccB-0000f2-Or for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:46:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54662) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOcbc-0000ef-Le for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:46:12 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:59605) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOcbZ-0003DH-AF for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 04:46:11 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.82.153.31]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000087ED2.00000000621C99BE.00000E80; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 02:45:34 -0700 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5050033.Gxf8NU8Bx7@galex-713.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -8 X-Spam_score: -0.9 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24=1.049, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:777 Archived-At: * Alexandre Garreau [2022-02-27 14:52]: > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or > threatened. I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to be the cause. But it is not cause. You have to review history of Ukraine and how Germany installed organizations back in time, history of anti-semitism in Ukraine, including history of Ukrainian Nazism. Since Germany wanted to overthrow emperor of Russia back in time, Ukraine is used by western forces as place for fighting. People have been suffering in that area for decades while politicians in other countries only care to influence Russia through conflicts in Ukraina. I do not condone ANY war. I am against any wars. > That’s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to people far > away is difficult, especially when a such war would have been > difficult to predict in advance, and totally ununderstandable once > it happened… it’s totally useless shit… Putin has just got mad. It was maybe for you individually difficult to predict. It was planned and manipulated since many years by West in order to minimize power of East. Ukrainian Nazis have been sponsored by US congress. Why would US congress sponsor Ukrainian Nazis? Of course with purpose to manipulate political situations in other countries. I see and take US presidents, US congress, Western politicians and Putin; all together; and Ukrainian politicians and their neglect of legality in their own country as accountable for what is going on in Ukraine, as they have made that scenario. More references for people to get better understanding of recent history in Ukraine: US Congress stops funding for Ukraine's war-criminal, neo-Nazi Azov Battalion -- Puppet Masters -- Sott.net https://www.sott.net/article/350064-US-Congress-stops-funding-for-Ukraines-war-criminal-neo-Nazi-Azov-Battalion The Terrorists Among US11 Azov Battalion and American Congressional Support | The Vineyard of the Saker https://thesaker.is/the-terrorists-among-us11-azov-battalion-and-american-congressional-support/ Canadian Armed Forces providing military training to Ukrainian neo-Nazis - World Socialist Web Site https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/12/03/uknz-d03.html Praise Of Ukrainian Neo-Nazi Battalion Given Green Light By Facebook: Intercept | ZeroHedge https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/praise-ukrainian-neo-nazi-battalion-given-green-light-facebook-intercept Azov Battalion - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion Collaboration in German-occupied Ukraine - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine#Ukrainian_National_Committee Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem | Reuters https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUSKBN1GV2TY > Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easier > psychologically than sitting in despair giving up… Ukrainians are > showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, although in > front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to > surrender in front of a higher power… Majority of Ukrainians DO NOT WANT criminals such as terrorists of Azov Battalion operating in their country. Thus "freedom" is related to peace, and that peace has been sabotaged over and over again from inside of Ukraine. Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian volunteer forces - Amnesty International https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoing-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/ When you look at the situation which is taking place without looking into history and background, then of course one will come to such conclusions related to solidarity, freedom, Puting is bad and so on. That is all logical. But if you look into history and information on what is really going on and which crime have been committed in Ukraine by those Neo-Nazis and that their justice system does not protect people -- then one can understand that other country such as Russia comes to help. I do not condone neither approve that kind of "help" -- but what is sure is that Western countries approved Neo-Nazis, supported them financially with the help to destabilize Russia, with the intend to install NATO in Ukraine; and Western politicians DID NOTHING to help victims of Neo-Nazis. Amnesty International cannot do it alone. Now Putin comes to "save people" -- what is there so much different than what US did in Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, and many other countries? I do not condone war, I am for peace. But when you reason, then take all facts in consideration. > i don’t understand why nato doesn’t take the risk being bombed to > help ukrainians. Russia as country does not attack Ukrainians. Definitely not. There are innocent victims and I do not approve of that. War is the worse insanity on the planet. How I see the situation, Russia is "helping" the fellow new nation -- and it seem to me not possible that Russian military wants to attack Ukrainian people as such; they have their targets and this I understand, but Russia and Ukraine are so much connected, I could even say they are so much similar to each other and share culture and history. Their families are intertwined. I never was thinking of Ukrainian people as being so much different from Russians. It is very hard for me to think that "Russia" attacks "Ukrainian" for reasons of being Ukrainian. What I see is that Russia is concerned for crimes in Ukraine not being handled by Ukrainian themselves; now they have military intervention. That Uganda has sent recently troops in Congo to fight rebels is very similar situation; one could simply say that Uganda occupied parts of Congo with purpose to exterminate rebels; and world is not talking about it. But why? Because it does not help the Western politics; Russia is not close to Congo; there is no purpose for US and NATO to get into it. There is no benefit neither interest. Though situation is quite similar. And people in Congo welcome Ugandan military intervention, they have got enough of terrorism. So it is in Ukraine, there are thousands of people in Ukraine welcoming the intervention and fight against internal terrorism. > What should be needed would be to send material help there, money, > maybe even to rob the states and rich in each country for that, and > for russians to block anything materially providing for russian army > or state controlled medias… Law and order is what is needed. Ukrainian politicians internally have to commit to law and order, to respect human rights without discrimination. Would that be enacted, there would be no military intervention now. And I repeat, I am against any war, and I like Russians and Ukrainian equally; and any refugee is free to ask me for accommodation. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/