From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine] Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 12:52:36 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87ee3p4xn4.fsf@zoho.eu> <87czj7gpyp.fsf@gmail.com> <5132354.M1jKaovQIP@galex-713.eu> <87o82qvzaf.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33121"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.0 (2022-02-12) Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org, Alexandre Garreau To: Max Brieiev Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 01 13:50:29 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nP1xV-0008R5-5E for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 13:50:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36946 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP1xT-0007YC-PX for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 07:50:27 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44226) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP1v0-0006eq-V5 for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 07:47:55 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:59611) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP1ul-0001Ue-Ib for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 07:47:52 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.82.28.32]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000087ECD.00000000621E15EA.000052D4; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 05:47:37 -0700 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87o82qvzaf.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:803 Archived-At: * Max Brieiev [2022-03-01 11:43]: > Jean Louis writes: > > > Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy website. > > You made some big statements as well about justification of invasion > into Ukraine. No, I have not given ANY justifications to invasion of Ukraine. For that reason I have constantly repeated that I am against the war. I am for transparency of information, and not biased blaming. The reason why I participate in that political discussion is only to point out to biased blaming on Russia. > You accuse Ukraine of complex political situation. No, that is not what I ever said. I said that overall it is complex, not related specifically to Ukraine. I have not accused Ukraine, I am accusing specific politicians in Ukraine who did nothing to stop human rights abuses in your country. And I accuse EU and NATO who did nothing to stop human rights abuses and killing at the time they knew it was happening. > My friend, Ukraine is the most democratic country of the former > USSR. I do not say that "democratic" is something most valuable, highest ideal; and the true word is twisted so much and abused and misused, so I would not be able to tell who is democratic and who is not. Though I like peace. So if Ukraine is democratic and advance country, make some choices in your country and stop human rights abused. That should be right, isn't it? Same should be said for Russians, they shall stop human rights abuses and protest against war. Here I am in under developed country, with my European values, and here I find human rights abuse that teachers are constantly beating and torturing children. I can do something about it, and go to teachers and personally speak to them, I also give them warnings and I report to relevant Ministry. I cannot do much, I have visited 3 schools so far, and will keep visiting other 50 or 100 schools. But my work is not much comparatively. In similar fashion, you may talk to people in your country to equally treat all citizens and support human rights, and bring to justice those who abused human rights. So do something. > Not only that, Ukraine is doing good progress in eliminating > corruption, just check Transparency International reports since > 2014. Every country in the world is doing something to eliminate corruption. I rather support corrupted country with peace like Uganda, then one advancing in elimination of corruption, without peace and with internal conflicts. Ideal countries don't exist, do they? I would like there are no countries at all and that we can leave peaceful life without influence from others. > The whole country is being reformed after 2014 revolution, despite > huge resources are being drained into the conflict in the > east. Zelensky was elected by 72% of voters. What is so complex > about that? He is a jew and he is native Russian speaker. How could > nazi allow that? Maybe your nazi proclaims are just a myth? Please, my references are clear. It does not matter who was elected, that is not relevant to the fact that Azov Battalion is involved in human rights abuses and killings. It is later, according to online information, included in national army of Ukraine. Criminals were accepted in army. That happens only in corrupted countries. So there is much more progress necessary for Ukraine to really become peaceful country. > Look at the Russian mercenaries of Wagner group, who are serving Russian > government. Just google for it and their leader Dmitry Utkin. Those are > true nazis! And they are here right now, in Ukraine, fighting Ukrainian > people. True "liberators"! Bad. I do not support any war, killings, that is all rough communication with stuff like projected steel pieces, I support gentle communication, talking with words, gentleness. Not war. Love, but not war. I do not take sides. Just because you see me putting out some references, you rush to think that I take sides. What I do is pointing out that information from West is biased. You point out information from your side, so that is dialogue, and we can understand it better. My purpose is that we don't divide each other based on ethnicity or citizenship. I was in the war and I know something about it. All my family members went to other countries. One part of them came begin of 1900 from Ukraine by the way. For any war there is no justification. War is insanity. We have to support each other. Not be enemies. > Ukraine has some disgraceful past of World War II period, related to > Polish people. That is true. This was a tragedy and I am ashamed of > it. You should not be. You did not do it, not in this life time. You are ashamed because somebody teach you about patriotism. One part of peopel killed in Ukraine were also patriots, but they are now dead. One day your country is for you, another day it may be against you. You don't know that? Observe what is happening with COVID. Is it democracy? OK, keep your patriotism as you wish. You have rights to it. Me I will put any patriotism in the toilet and flus water after it. > But how can you link the events of WW2 to the current time, saying > that things are the same? Also, this is not Poland, who is > attacking Ukraine, but Russia. You asked. So I can see the link. It is the same link as during the time of Tsar, when Germany used Ukraine for conflict and destabilization of Russia. That same game is now going on with US and NATO to destabilize Ukraine. > All your references are about the conflict in 2014. The war is not only > about battles. It is also the time, when marauders and criminals are > doing their nasty things. This was the time when Russia invaded Crimea > and Donbass region, just a couple days after euromaidan succeded, a > total mess, we had no government, no army, nothing! I understand. But why don't you also mention events that preceded it? I am against war. I am for peace. And I am against biased dissemination of information. > And so I see your words as misinformation or propaganda, most > Ukrainians don't share your views. Now you are the one representing them. You know them all? Did you ask them what they think about "my view"? And then I am talking propaganda. Be factual. > There can't be any justification for invasion. There is no true justification for any killing, invasion, war, etc. There are only apparent justifications for wrongdoing. That is what Putin does. > You are blurring the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine, and Ukrainian > people are giving their lives at this very moment. I am not blurring. My intention is opposite, for information to be known, not to be hidden. Here is the example of what we have in this discussion: Imagine there is observer C, and there are parties in conflict A and B. 1) Party A does wrong to party B. 2) Party B does wrong to party A. 3) Observer C sees that party B did something wrong to party A, and attacks party B. Observer did not see the act under (1). Thus I am proposing to look into information. You are in Ukraine, but you did not yourself research what Germany did with Ukrainians and how they used them during Tsar. And that is same what US did to you. Now you have got war with the nation which share language and culture with you. I am saying, there is third party in the conflict, and that third party has interest in that conflict! -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/