Re: why conflict [Was: Re: no to war in Ukraine]

[Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>]

* Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-03-01 11:43]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > Big statements there, with zero references. This is not conspiracy website.
> 
> You made some big statements as well about justification of invasion
> into Ukraine.

No, I have not given ANY justifications to invasion of Ukraine. For
that reason I have constantly repeated that I am against the war. I am
for transparency of information, and not biased blaming.

The reason why I participate in that political discussion is only to
point out to biased blaming on Russia. 

> You accuse Ukraine of complex political situation.

No, that is not what I ever said. I said that overall it is complex,
not related specifically to Ukraine.

I have not accused Ukraine, I am accusing specific politicians in
Ukraine who did nothing to stop human rights abuses in your
country. And I accuse EU and NATO who did nothing to stop human rights
abuses and killing at the time they knew it was happening.

> My friend, Ukraine is the most democratic country of the former
> USSR.

I do not say that "democratic" is something most valuable, highest
ideal; and the true word is twisted so much and abused and misused, so
I would not be able to tell who is democratic and who is not.

Though I like peace. So if Ukraine is democratic and advance country,
make some choices in your country and stop human rights abused. That
should be right, isn't it? Same should be said for Russians, they
shall stop human rights abuses and protest against war.

Here I am in under developed country, with my European values, and
here I find human rights abuse that teachers are constantly beating
and torturing children. I can do something about it, and go to
teachers and personally speak to them, I also give them warnings and I
report to relevant Ministry. I cannot do much, I have visited 3
schools so far, and will keep visiting other 50 or 100 schools. But my
work is not much comparatively.

In similar fashion, you may talk to people in your country to equally
treat all citizens and support human rights, and bring to justice
those who abused human rights.

So do something.

> Not only that, Ukraine is doing good progress in eliminating
> corruption, just check Transparency International reports since
> 2014.

Every country in the world is doing something to eliminate corruption. 

I rather support corrupted country with peace like Uganda, then one
advancing in elimination of corruption, without peace and with
internal conflicts. Ideal countries don't exist, do they? I would like
there are no countries at all and that we can leave peaceful life
without influence from others.

> The whole country is being reformed after 2014 revolution, despite
> huge resources are being drained into the conflict in the
> east. Zelensky was elected by 72% of voters. What is so complex
> about that? He is a jew and he is native Russian speaker. How could
> nazi allow that? Maybe your nazi proclaims are just a myth?

Please, my references are clear. It does not matter who was elected,
that is not relevant to the fact that Azov Battalion is involved in
human rights abuses and killings. It is later, according to online
information, included in national army of Ukraine. Criminals were
accepted in army. That happens only in corrupted countries. So there
is much more progress necessary for Ukraine to really become peaceful
country.

> Look at the Russian mercenaries of Wagner group, who are serving Russian
> government. Just google for it and their leader Dmitry Utkin. Those are
> true nazis! And they are here right now, in Ukraine, fighting Ukrainian
> people. True "liberators"!

Bad. I do not support any war, killings, that is all rough
communication with stuff like projected steel pieces, I support gentle
communication, talking with words, gentleness. Not war. Love, but not
war. 

I do not take sides. Just because you see me putting out some
references, you rush to think that I take sides. 

What I do is pointing out that information from West is biased. You
point out information from your side, so that is dialogue, and we can
understand it better. My purpose is that we don't divide each other
based on ethnicity or citizenship. I was in the war and I know
something about it. All my family members went to other countries. One
part of them came begin of 1900 from Ukraine by the way.

For any war there is no justification. War is insanity. 

We have to support each other. Not be enemies.

> Ukraine has some disgraceful past of World War II period, related to
> Polish people. That is true. This was a tragedy and I am ashamed of
> it.

You should not be. You did not do it, not in this life time. 

You are ashamed because somebody teach you about patriotism. One part
of peopel killed in Ukraine were also patriots, but they are now
dead. One day your country is for you, another day it may be against
you. You don't know that? Observe what is happening with COVID. Is it
democracy? 

OK, keep your patriotism as you wish. You have rights to it.

Me I will put any patriotism in the toilet and flus water after it.

> But how can you link the events of WW2 to the current time, saying
> that things are the same?  Also, this is not Poland, who is
> attacking Ukraine, but Russia.

You asked. So I can see the link. It is the same link as during the
time of Tsar, when Germany used Ukraine for conflict and
destabilization of Russia. That same game is now going on with US and
NATO to destabilize Ukraine.

> All your references are about the conflict in 2014. The war is not only
> about battles. It is also the time, when marauders and criminals are
> doing their nasty things. This was the time when Russia invaded Crimea
> and Donbass region, just a couple days after euromaidan succeded, a
> total mess, we had no government, no army, nothing!

I understand. But why don't you also mention events that preceded it?

I am against war. I am for peace. And I am against biased
dissemination of information.

> And so I see your words as misinformation or propaganda, most
> Ukrainians don't share your views.

Now you are the one representing them. You know them all? Did you ask
them what they think about "my view"? And then I am talking
propaganda. Be factual.

> There can't be any justification for invasion.

There is no true justification for any killing, invasion, war, etc.

There are only apparent justifications for wrongdoing. That is what
Putin does. 

> You are blurring the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine, and Ukrainian
> people are giving their lives at this very moment.

I am not blurring. My intention is opposite, for information to be
known, not to be hidden.

Here is the example of what we have in this discussion:

Imagine there is observer C, and there are parties in conflict A and
B.

1) Party A does wrong to party B.

2) Party B does wrong to party A.

3) Observer C sees that party B did something wrong to party A, and
   attacks party B. Observer did not see the act under (1).

Thus I am proposing to look into information. You are in Ukraine, but
you did not yourself research what Germany did with Ukrainians and how
they used them during Tsar. And that is same what US did to you. Now
you have got war with the nation which share language and culture with
you.

I am saying, there is third party in the conflict, and that third
party has interest in that conflict!

-- 
Jean

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