From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 10:27:39 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87ee3p4xn4.fsf@zoho.eu> <5050033.Gxf8NU8Bx7@galex-713.eu> <8763867.BOMLdT1YOJ@galex-713.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31509"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.0 (2022-02-12) Cc: Jacob Hrbek , emacs-tangents@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Alexandre Garreau Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 01 13:42:17 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nP1pY-0007yO-CM for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 13:42:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:32824 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP1pX-0004Ok-2z for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 07:42:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42104) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP1ml-00047W-Ak for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 07:39:24 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:46049) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP1mi-0008GU-Uy for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 07:39:22 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.82.28.32]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000087EC4.00000000621E13D6.00004EF6; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 05:38:45 -0700 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8763867.BOMLdT1YOJ@galex-713.eu> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -2 X-Spam_score: -0.3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:800 Archived-At: * Alexandre Garreau [2022-02-28 17:42]: > Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit : > > * Alexandre Garreau [2022-02-27 14:52]: > > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe > > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or > > > threatened. > > > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to > > be the cause. But it is not cause. > > I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like some high officials, > generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on the other hand, i have the hidden hope > many russian militaries, both low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in > order to save lifes). But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not (he perfectly > looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to «Putin and the absence of democracy». I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women could not vote). The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including the war. If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy", that would include the protection of citizen by those who make harm. The absence of democracy is thus not related only to Russia, but it is related to Ukraine, and especially to foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation and bring about the war that is taking place right now. I have given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was financing the Azov Battalion, and we can see today which countries are sending military weapons and which countries supported the escalation from beginning. Yes, situation is much more complex than we think. It goes back into history, and one can see that there was always third party that escalated conflicts in Ukraine. This war is a consequence of manipulation and influence by third parties into the politics of Ukraine. Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each other. > I know it's worse than here, but everytime I speak to ukrainians about it, it looks like > it isn't. So I guess this must be more complicated than that, up to the point it's not that > relevant anymore. As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas war. If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and order. And that means respecting human rights and handling crimes in the country. That is what Germany, Austria, Norway, France, Spain, do in their countries. They do respect human rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice system is there that helps to stabilize it. That is why we can see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the resistance and protection by government and by common people who cannot be sold on those stories. Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings. And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well, there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human rights abuses. Compare it, it is comparable. We speak of absence of democracy. I don't know if true democracy is really there in Germany, but Germany does handle their Nazis and does not allow that what Ukrainian government did allow to themselves. Logical consequence is that some party like Russia will stand on the side of victims, so they did in past several times. And I am sure there were ways for Russia to stand on side of human rights without war. There are always ways. The major undisputable fact is that human rights abuses went unhandled in Ukraine, despite all kinds of warnings and reports. It is also fact that neither US nor EU did anything to prevent atrocities committed there against its own citizens, all based on ethnicity. Fact is that atrocities were not public enough. Would there be no Wikipedia page on it, it would be very difficult to provide references to uninformed people. Thus the world does not know. Like what my Swedish friend said, war is wrong and let us now cut off Russia. But that viewpoint is uninformed. Problem is not just in Russian politics or in Putin. Problem is that tens of thousands of people died because of lack of law and order in Ukraine, and lack of democratical (modern civilized) measures to prevent human rights abuses and killings. By cutting off Russia, we do not help Ukrainian citizens who suffered and continue to suffer in the country without law and order. And that is why the wish for independency of those 2 parts in Ukraine. I can understand that. You treat me bad, and I will depart from you. It is the same feeling for individuals and for groups. Problem is not in Russia, problem is in all of us NOT BEING ALERTED ENOUGH that people are killed all over the world. We have Internet but we did not organize global emergency system to do something when killings start. We speak of Ukraine because it is in the news. Innocent people are dying in Africa due to invasion and occupations all the time, but because we are not straight informed through media, we don't do nothing about it. There is no discussion on this mailing list on how many innocent civilians died in Congo in last few months. This is because West has interest in Ukraine, they don't have interest in remote areas of the world. It is not about humanity, it is about economical interests. Though peacemakers can put focus on handling human rights issues in times and be strict on that timely, as that may prevent wars. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/