Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>]

* Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-28 17:42]:
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > > threatened.
> > 
> > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to
> > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> 
> I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like some high officials, 
> generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on the other hand, i have the hidden hope 
> many russian militaries, both low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in 
> order to save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not (he perfectly 
> looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to «Putin and the absence of democracy».

I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to
your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should
rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the
Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women
could not vote).

The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and
that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject
of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including
the war.

If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy",
that would include the protection of citizen by those who make
harm. The absence of democracy is thus not related only to
Russia, but it is related to Ukraine, and especially to
foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation
and bring about the war that is taking place right now. I have
given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was
financing the Azov Battalion, and we can see today which
countries are sending military weapons and which countries
supported the escalation from beginning.

Yes, situation is much more complex than we think. It goes
back into history, and one can see that there was always third
party that escalated conflicts in Ukraine. This war is a
consequence of manipulation and influence by third parties
into the politics of Ukraine.

Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue
you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each
other.

> I know it's worse than here, but everytime I speak to ukrainians about it, it looks like 
> it isn't.  So I guess this must be more complicated than that, up to the point it's not that 
> relevant anymore.

As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand
relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them
and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas
war. 

If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and
order. And that means respecting human rights and handling
crimes in the country. That is what Germany, Austria, Norway,
France, Spain, do in their countries. They do respect human
rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice
system is there that helps to stabilize it. That is why we can
see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the
resistance and protection by government and by common people
who cannot be sold on those stories. 

Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they
are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings.

And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well,
there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human
rights abuses.

Compare it, it is comparable. We speak of absence of
democracy. I don't know if true democracy is really there in
Germany, but Germany does handle their Nazis and does not
allow that what Ukrainian government did allow to themselves.

Logical consequence is that some party like Russia will stand
on the side of victims, so they did in past several times. 

And I am sure there were ways for Russia to stand on side of
human rights without war. There are always ways. 

The major undisputable fact is that human rights abuses went
unhandled in Ukraine, despite all kinds of warnings and
reports. It is also fact that neither US nor EU did anything
to prevent atrocities committed there against its own
citizens, all based on ethnicity.

Fact is that atrocities were not public enough. Would there be
no Wikipedia page on it, it would be very difficult to provide
references to uninformed people. 

Thus the world does not know.

Like what my Swedish friend said, war is wrong and let us now
cut off Russia. But that viewpoint is uninformed. Problem is
not just in Russian politics or in Putin. Problem is that tens
of thousands of people died because of lack of law and order
in Ukraine, and lack of democratical (modern civilized)
measures to prevent human rights abuses and killings. By
cutting off Russia, we do not help Ukrainian citizens who
suffered and continue to suffer in the country without law and
order.

And that is why the wish for independency of those 2 parts in
Ukraine.

I can understand that. You treat me bad, and I will depart
from you. It is the same feeling for individuals and for
groups.

Problem is not in Russia, problem is in all of us NOT BEING
ALERTED ENOUGH that people are killed all over the world. We
have Internet but we did not organize global emergency system
to do something when killings start.

We speak of Ukraine because it is in the news. Innocent people
are dying in Africa due to invasion and occupations all the
time, but because we are not straight informed through media,
we don't do nothing about it. There is no discussion on this
mailing list on how many innocent civilians died in Congo in
last few months. This is because West has interest in Ukraine,
they don't have interest in remote areas of the world. It is
not about humanity, it is about economical interests.

Though peacemakers can put focus on handling human rights
issues in times and be strict on that timely, as that may
prevent wars.

-- 
Jean

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