From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Emacs User Survey 2020 Results Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 20:22:44 +0300 Message-ID: References: <27f2aad6-2c1e-1127-bce6-5e96a241db56@gmx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25705"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org To: Adrien Brochard Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 09 18:34:22 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kn3M5-0006Yh-RS for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 18:34:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58894 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kn3M4-00035f-Hp for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 12:34:20 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41618) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kn3ER-0006is-A5 for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 12:26:27 -0500 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:38693) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kn3EL-0001k0-TD for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 12:26:25 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.31]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000001E367.000000005FD108BA.00004797; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 10:26:18 -0700 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <27f2aad6-2c1e-1127-bce6-5e96a241db56@gmx.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:457 Archived-At: Hello Adrien, I find efforts nice and friendly. Don't think it is badmind that I may be picky on some specifics on your presentation. * Adrien Brochard [2020-12-09 19:43]: > Hi everyone, > > After a week of reading every submission, cleaning up the data, and > leaning matplotlib, I finally have enough confidence to publish the > results of the Emacs User Survey 2020. That is definitely hard work as you allowed non-strict data to enter the survey as both answering by email and by web is not easy to categorize. > https://emacssurvey.org/2020/ > > I want to thank everyone who responded, commented, and shared it! > There's over 7300 responses and it's really thanks to this amazing > community. That is surprising result, maybe you remember I was expecting much less people to respond. To me that speaks that there may be 7.3 millions Emacs users minimum, as I consider 1 survey submitted for 1000 people who did not submit. This is a vague fact known in media such as newspapers. It may not be. > There is still a lot to do, the data could always be analyzed > differently, the website could be nicer, etc, but the responses have > been so overwhelmingly positive that I just have to publish without > more delay. If you have feedback or feel like contributing, all > source and data are public. Thank you. Now here are my comments: Number one critic to you is that you drive people who use free software to non-free software. You maybe have to research why Emacs came to be Emacs and why is it named GNU Emacs. There are reasons for that. I cannot be soft-hearted on that. When you call it "Emacs Survey" why not make it in the spirit of Emacs as free software and stop promoting non-free proprietary program such as Matlab. GNU Emacs GNU Octave, as Scientific Programming Language, is pPowerful mathematics-oriented syntax with built-in 2D/3D plotting and visualization tools Free software, runs on GNU/Linux, macOS, BSD, and Microsoft Windows Drop-in compatible with many Matlab scripts. See: https://www.gnu.org/software/octave/ Same critics remain that you have driven people to non-free proprietary Javascript. In the second attempt to make the survey is that going to happen again? I hope not. Now comes the technical part of my critics which is meant that you maybe, hopefull, kindly, try to improve next time. - personally I do not find submission medium important, email or website, alright and fine, but it does not contribute back to Emacs any useful information, so it is with submissions over time - your graphs are confusing and not common to me. It is not conclusive what you wish to present with the graphs such as "How do you use Emacs" where you are showing about 6000+ people using it for work and 2000+ people using it for studies. Your visual comparison is conflicting itself in my opinion as it does not make it conclusive if 2000 people among 6000 people use it for studies and for the work or only 2000 among 7300 use it for studies. As it is not definitely conclusive what you wanted to present I cannot be sure. - it is good for me to know that people use it for work. But compared to the statistics if they use it for programming it looks like majority of programmers use Emacs for work. And that is not quite clear what "work" means. If it means programming or means something else. - writing? Does it mean writing books, articles, reports, research writing is not writing? Programming is not writing? Hard to say what is meant with it and what is subset or intersection or union of what. I do not mind, as it looks like hobby project. But you may maybe draw conclusiong from here. - the OS type of a question tells me there is much more work to do to replace those proprietary OSes with free software, that is useful information, thank you - it is informative how people turn off tool bars and similar. - question about editors is unfair somehow as it gives impression that people would use exclusively one editor. I am using mostly Emacs, and will use vi such as nvi version often to edit some files, but not to dwell in there, and I am frequently using ed when editing configuration files especially when I edit some configuration files on remote servers by using eshell or M-x shell trough Emacs. And when Emacs is getting crazy, I am using zille and will not hesitate using any text editor for notes or even editing Emacs configuration file by any editor. Maybe majority uses one true editor and never switch, I don't mind. For me is Emacs good as programming environment and I could use its features as programming language also from outside or within other editor by invoking a command that runs Emacs in background. For now I program in Emacs Lisp as many things get easier that way. Maybe I switch to something later who knows. - that ivy is mostly used completion package is interesting which should make incentive to include it in the Emacs core. But it is not as polished. - now the statistics "Can you list some of your favorite packages" where you have placed "other" as the longest item becomes less meaningfull because "Other" could be represented in words, such as that majority answered "Other" and then the rest you could display visually. That way the rest gets it visual meaning. This way, the longest item is so long that those named packages are visually not easily comparable to each other. - same comment is valid for themes - flycheck is not specifically error checking it is spell checking. - html/css is not a programming language, SQL is a structured query language with some functions but it is not a programming language. If you wish to mix programming languages and other stuff, then why not include all other markup languages as well. - your Jypiter notebook can most probably be done also in Org mode. All the graphs could be also generated in Emacs as well and without proprietary external software. Graphviz and dot systems could be efficient. - from all the graphs that deserve to be the pie graph you have placed only one "how have you heard about survey" on the end. Enjoy, Jean