From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Sv: Rethinking the design of xwidgets Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 11:10:01 +0300 Message-ID: References: <124a89a6-353c-91f8-8a1a-d2a807db28e3@yandex.ru> <777a890b-cc3f-5338-4eea-129b66c29451@yandex.ru> <6ce4b6fa-d0ae-14dd-a5d1-f2b27080b3c3@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10367"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/+ (1036f0e) (2020-10-18) Cc: "eliz@gnu.org" , "emacs-tangents@gnu.org" , Richard Stallman , "ak@akirakyle.com" , Dmitry Gutov To: arthur miller Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 21 10:11:05 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kV9D6-0002XX-VC for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:11:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41336 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kV9D5-0000XY-Hq for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 04:11:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40190) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kV9Cu-0000XE-N6 for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 04:10:52 -0400 Original-Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:32995) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kV9Cs-0000UR-MJ; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 04:10:52 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.51]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002A0B39.000000005F8FECE7.00007920; Wed, 21 Oct 2020 08:10:15 +0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/21 01:54:45 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:409 Archived-At: * arthur miller [2020-10-21 02:25]: > > > You cannot know. > > Exactly. That was a point I was making. One can not know. But we > have to;know. There is no way around knowing facts., and that iswhy > we can not have blobs​; and that is why I said RMS is completely > correct about that. When I started using GNU 1999, I first had to learn about free software, and later I found that Linux kernel does not work on every computer, because not all device drivers were written for those computers. So I have assumed that Linux developers are writing those device drivers, which is also true. I was not informed about proprietary non-free firmware files. That I found way too late in 2016, and then switched to FSF endorsed fully free distributions. A free software system should teach people about free software, it should designate: - that BIOS is not free, that OS does not replace non-free stuff in BIOS, and that there are ways on specific devices to replace such. This warning should come with every boot, if somebody would ask me. Intel ME and MINIX inside have been huge security breach and still is, there are problems with memory and that all could have been as well intentional. - that some devices will not work, because for such do not exist free software firmware files, that should also be made known to users publicly and all those notices should be very very clear. - that users do not have control over computing on those devices or computers. It is not enough to say: if you wish that your device works, just load the non-free firmware. As such simple statement does not tell the user that user does not have control over his computing if such firmware is enabled. > There is big difference between a fact and trust. Facts are true because of their > intrinsic nature, regardless of our preferance; wether we like that thruth or not. > Trust is something one choose by preferance. It can (and should) be based on facts, but > it does not have to, it can be based on emotions, wishes and maybe other subjective > opinion. That is right, we do not and cannot decide for people to which group or which software to trust. It is developing socially. Obviously that is why there are various distributions. Those who trust Archlinux are in slightly different group, those trusting fully free FSF endorsed distributions are in slightly different group, those will think more about freedom issues and safety for users, there will be no references to proprietary software. > Facts can be verified; trust does not have to. So no; trust is not > good enough. Users cannot verify facts in general, that is privilege only for small group of good programmers knowing it all, as nobody alone can verify what is going on in the system. There is no central authority to make sure of that, even in past there were various organizations, maybe also now, but they will not ensure of free software, for example Linux Foundation is probably run and sponsored by big companies who have slightly different interests. Linus Torvalds have slightly different interests then Linux-libre maintainers, there are reasons for both, and it is up to people to decide what is more beneficial for them, like you said, based on emotion it can as well be, based on liking Linus, it can be. It need not be factual. > However I feel that it was misstake to construct the argument I did, I should have known > that people will missunderstand it; I really ment to construct a philosophical argument to > point out how little we really know, not to compare Intel vs Purism per se. I used names as > illustration, I should have used X and Y. I certainly don't mean harm to neither Intel nor Purism, > discussion who is bad guys and who is good guys certainly does not belong to emacs-devel > so I appologize for that. Thank you, I understand it now better. > Furthermore if you are referreing to Prism when you say Intel is known to spy on millions, then I > am think that probablyany company approached (ordered) by the goverment would probably do > the same. Lets restrain from using company names here; and yes rms is probably correct, this > discussion is getting out of hand, so maybe better to continue it > off the list. I have changed the Cc: to emacs-tangents@gnu.org for that reason. Jean