From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Sv: Rethinking the design of xwidgets Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:59:43 +0200 Message-ID: References: <124a89a6-353c-91f8-8a1a-d2a807db28e3@yandex.ru> <777a890b-cc3f-5338-4eea-129b66c29451@yandex.ru> <6ce4b6fa-d0ae-14dd-a5d1-f2b27080b3c3@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13080"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: "eliz@gnu.org" , "emacs-tangents@gnu.org" , Richard Stallman , "ak@akirakyle.com" , Dmitry Gutov To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 21 14:00:54 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kVCnW-0003JW-98 for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/21 07:59:46 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows NT kernel [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:411 Archived-At: Jean Louis writes: > * arthur miller [2020-10-21 02:25]: >>=20 >> > You cannot know. >>=20 >> Exactly. That was a point I was making. One can not know. But we >> have to;know. There is no way around knowing facts., and that iswhy >> we can not have blobs=E2=80=8B; and that is why I said RMS is completely >> correct about that. > > When I started using GNU 1999, I first had to learn about free > software, and later I found that Linux kernel does not work on every > computer, because not all device drivers were written for those > computers. So I have assumed that Linux developers are writing those > device drivers, which is also true. I was not informed about > proprietary non-free firmware files. > > That I found way too late in 2016, and then switched to FSF endorsed > fully free distributions. > > A free software system should teach people about free software, it > should designate: > > - that BIOS is not free, that OS does not replace non-free stuff in > BIOS, and that there are ways on specific devices to replace > such. This warning should come with every boot, if somebody would > ask me. Intel ME and MINIX inside have been huge security breach and > still is, there are problems with memory and that all could have > been as well intentional. > > - that some devices will not work, because for such do not exist free > software firmware files, that should also be made known to users > publicly and all those notices should be very very clear. > > - that users do not have control over computing on those devices or compu= ters. > > It is not enough to say: if you wish that your device works, just load > the non-free firmware. > > As such simple statement does not tell the user that user does not have > control over his computing if such firmware is enabled. > >> There is big difference between a fact and trust. Facts are true because= of their >> intrinsic nature, regardless of our preferance; wether we like that thru= th or not. >> Trust is something one choose by preferance. It can (and should) be base= d on facts, but >> it does not have to, it can be based on emotions, wishes and maybe other= subjective >> opinion. Then we have started to use GNU/Linux around same time. My very first distro was Red Hat 5.1, I think KDE was somewhere in 1.2 or something. Got it from a magazine CD, and I had luck to read all that about drivers and Free software before installation. Back than it was much harder to get drivers to work and all that. I think my graphic card was TNT2 if remember well. I got it that card so I could play Quake, AOE and Starcraft. I also had to buy 128 meg of RAM extra. > That is right, we do not and cannot decide for people to which group > or which software to trust. It is developing socially. Obviously that > is why there are various distributions. Partially. There are also other issues with "trust" that I wasn't touching on because of the lengthy mail, and I was at work typing from the phone. Short version: if trust worked we wouldn't need laws, and lawyers. There wouldn't be hurt feelings and wars. If you wish we can discuss more about trust, but I am not sure we need to. Another problem with trust is the ignorance baked into it. We can be lack information for some reason, we can trust on false premisse either by an honest misstake or for a malicious reason, or it can be because of incomplete information. Yet another important issue is that trust based on previous experience, as you described in your first response, does not leave space for people to make misstakes. Companies are just entities, dead things that made decisions. Decisions are made of people, it is people that make misstakes. People fail for various reasons. Amongs any population there will be certain amount of geniouses, certain amount of people with some condition etc. It is normal, people should be allowed to fail to. And they should be also allowed to correct their misstakes and continues to become a part of society. That makes for a batter society. It is also not a guarantee they will not make a misstake in the future. Saying that company X has history of this and company Y has history of that, means that people can not change and are not allowed to correct themselves. Companies do hire other people, people come and go etc. >> Facts can be verified; trust does not have to. So no; trust is not >> good enough. > > Users cannot verify facts in general, that is privilege only for small > group of good programmers knowing it all, as nobody alone can verify > what is going on in the system. There is no central authority to make > sure of that, even in past there were various organizations, maybe > also now, but they will not ensure of free software, for example Linux > Foundation is probably run and sponsored by big companies who have > slightly different interests. Well, yes indeed. There is always a theory and there is a practice :-) Philosophical discussion is often about theory, not about practice. Anyway, if blob had source, and there was enough reason to look at it, there would probably be someone to do it. Company Y might be really honest about their intention, both companies can be honest, why wouldn't they after all? I am of firm believe that most people are actually good people. However, if company X believes they need to protect their trade secret they have no choice but to give an opaque blob. Unless they give company Y access to the source of the blob, company Y can not know what is in the blob, they can just "trust" the X, but despite all their honest intentions, there is not much more they can do. There is also no guarantee that the blob is correct, i.e. no bugs, and there is no way to know if there are other blobs hidden. Maybe ME is just a honeypot, how do we know there are no other secrets in there? We can't know unfortuantely because we don't have acces of the source of CPU themselves either. So blob does not really solve the problem; it isn't sustainable; it is not a general solution, at least not good enough. Neither is holding back to year 2006, since one day that strategy will wear out. The world will be left without old CPUs. We need more sustainable solution. That is why I asked if those things work without network. I am not so knowledgable about ME extensions or security in general, but maybe there are people who are. Sorry for lengthy mails Best regards and thanks for your understanding. /arthur