From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:22:57 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83jzsvppv8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fa17b706052d883d" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29381"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Arthur Miller , emacs-tangents@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 12 20:23:31 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qg82s-0007Pa-Qf for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:23:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg82d-0004m9-Nl; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:23:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg82c-0004m1-Kk for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:23:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yw1-x1132.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1132]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qg82a-000482-7L; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:23:14 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yw1-x1132.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-59b8f5b6c0aso23005257b3.0; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 11:23:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694542990; x=1695147790; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=97MCFa0kc13HzfTTp9OnTOPu1ALQtHnqbUv0fwLtiMs=; b=L1UIz0LbC6qmgC7gD/Q9sTYsbANRD4izF3LJm7XLG5YdquSlfh9UGCVfh4UVfr3VBA ni7LEFCspE5V3I1SYASL1H2/3O6QjR5h8jVMar+CrNiJdgG4R+qQ1UUh/uyaomRZcll1 95inab163DVy377zdfTWbwMS6l5v57DRGsEtPlQbA+ZWvbigKd3flq/fGQ4zZbAVQ463 T2N10e1yMMALkRoiuaPSGNnfMoTfGjO/7WCVz1du3eRtPfF0+sMXDip94zMDWolDFywT ptcUwV6FWNrtxgO7Qw6HmfmrNxCp4jShJPfa4xmyRofXwZ8E9/30kFOO0s0q1KwgBkjR v/pw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694542990; x=1695147790; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=97MCFa0kc13HzfTTp9OnTOPu1ALQtHnqbUv0fwLtiMs=; b=Nr74f1UnO6eJuzlqGuwh2b8/5+xXe/dmrKhpRRCvR78MPHKBl+t1DYdv69IZR5rWP7 9INsWvikxkvQ6taPrtBNf2daWFO2Xz1sdNNkQLJAoWHO7npVerPZYfMmLmJ9qUmDQP5V shHWDGQVnqJWEJXRC9rkwCf8laCc8OsES3yoWiYaqP/3NhXECu7cFPUnQWm8ubyPrE/t QPXQ8k7eONtq+VGVLE8VM253R2f1vcZfdyia2uq4cUtPZM3akWTldX9djr+JYYjcyrDO XNAnQRrLd4ZCCBwMuc07EiEPvhbUeNU4L0BGt3NX4lGxGcYvpREi2ZGZhXGyR29lYHQy NBSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx1q6BjSeA07Iivi/7I85lqDBImND+gN/9sHk60QB6DJEmek3UX LqKNuKhmIFpicPB8A2odqMQLpZE3o4GQTxeSCHm5lJCwBiQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGizO4HiXCZBRTXKKcwloUIjMTbok5mNHHyKHrxh+Yy5IgTnEokXiWZf1WxZaQ6fXX8EAiGfv2ohKtWikwMImw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:3606:b0:59b:be67:84cb with SMTP id ft6-20020a05690c360600b0059bbe6784cbmr32319ywb.26.1694542990021; Tue, 12 Sep 2023 11:23:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83jzsvppv8.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1132; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yw1-x1132.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:1068 Archived-At: --000000000000fa17b706052d883d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that we're in -tangets (thanks for doing that, btw)... On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 7:57=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > [...] And don't be afraid of losing some of the applications and the > documentation -- these should be the least of your worries. [...] > My own opinion has come around to match Eli's (far more relevant/expert) on this topic, but in case it helps anyone else: I think this reflexive desire to keep a strong hold on all the existing elisp comes from the long line of emacs clones like Edwin, Hemlock, climacs, Alpha, and a long list of less well-known alternatives. I "lived through" several of these, and the sense I got from every one I actually tried was that people eventually fell back to the "real thing" emacs, largely because it worked (well enough?) and already had some facilities that were missing in the putative replacement. summary: I think it's hard to unlearn this lesson from history It's entirely possible that the shift of "typical computing" towards massively multi-core distributed etc. is the final straw, or at least the high bar that a massively-shared-state-lisp-machine can't vault -- while still being good enough to cross most of the moats we see in everyday usage. It's also possible that there's some adaptation that will arise, perhaps along the lines of how web workers/service worker threads interact with the DOM in the modern browser, that keeps Emacs going even longer. I remember the days when "Yeah, that will happen shortly after the release of Emacs 21" was the in-joke for porcine aeronautics, and we just saw Emacs 29 released, so: it could happen. I do think that a very early step needs to be "figure out how to handle concurrent analysis and editing across multiple cores and perhaps machines", but that probably just reflects a bunch of my personal interests= . ~Chad --000000000000fa17b706052d883d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now that we're in -tangets=C2=A0(thanks for doing= that, btw)...

On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 7:57=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zarets= kii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
[...] And don't be = afraid of losing some of the applications and the
documentation -- these should be the least of your worries. [...]

My own opinion has come around to match Eli'= s (far more relevant/expert) on this topic, but in case it helps anyone els= e: I think this reflexive desire to keep a strong hold on all the existing = elisp comes from the long line of emacs clones like Edwin, Hemlock, climacs= , Alpha, and a long list of less well-known alternatives. I "lived thr= ough" several of these, and the sense I got from every one I actually = tried was that people eventually fell back to the "real thing" em= acs, largely because it worked (well enough?) and already had some faciliti= es that were missing in the putative replacement.=C2=A0

summary: I think it's hard to unlearn this lesson from history

It's entirely possible that the shift of "t= ypical computing" towards massively multi-core distributed etc. is the= final straw, or at least the high bar that a massively-shared-state-lisp-m= achine can't vault -- while still being good enough to cross most of th= e moats we see in everyday usage. It's also possible that there's s= ome adaptation that will arise, perhaps along the lines of how web workers/= service worker threads interact with the DOM in the modern browser, that ke= eps Emacs going even longer. I remember the days when "Yeah, that will= happen shortly after the release of Emacs 21" was the in-joke for por= cine aeronautics, and we just saw Emacs 29 released, so: it could happen.

I do think that a very early step needs to be "= ;figure out how to handle concurrent analysis and editing across multiple c= ores and perhaps machines", but that probably just reflects a bunch of= my personal interests.

~Chad

=
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