From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: [External] : Re: master 127ab231be 1/2: Attempt to clarify Input Focus documentation Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:16:59 -0400 Message-ID: References: <166368675497.15121.15081377110947098460@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <20220920151239.61451C00871@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <87czbpihyl.fsf@yahoo.com> <2d1b683c2245a1b1035c@heytings.org> <87v8phgfv0.fsf@yahoo.com> <2d1b683c22ba04ac1445@heytings.org> <83h711ueqo.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmfpeyae.fsf@yahoo.com> <83czbovqfs.fsf@gnu.org> <83r104u1k3.fsf@gnu.org> <83pmfotyo8.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfkkdspw.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cc455505e94664e8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="565"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii , "gregory@heytings.org" , "larsi@gnus.org" , Po Lu To: emacs-tangents@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 22 18:35:01 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1obPAD-000AUx-0H for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 18:35:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43066 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1obPAA-0000i7-D0 for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:34:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37994) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1obOt5-0007dx-7k for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:17:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x634.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::634]:35637) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1obOt3-0001dp-78; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 12:17:18 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x634.google.com with SMTP id sd10so13802662ejc.2; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 09:17:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=15R95sI3orOm1afNRrBlwE1Woelo7GIqH37v7WJaPBE=; b=p+0Wpr/CQbCvOP189yY87umy1HKqsywoZ+hc3UcZkR/mVnbtrtJs0KSmoaIPeDb64Y rNgxLyAbN6joxvDBqAVWY0hy+4vgO0lhPwaTjB0tTqxR+ivPbFYuTUSY1mUfp3ftJojN 4yoK6ONU3oWKIh485jIDqC4gn3nCsgCJvgJzkZ/3kP80lwHsBMtJ+nHZMcr46oyjAF5+ 5gg5rqq2XSe6J/E3GL1PDwpBsSfk/PVhwoofZ7GlQz1j8vwbdTxG/ANP5com+seXzDCu PLNb3AtxKASB5rOFTv7oCZNo/WL+qLg2hH24P9Ik9P2RyQb55H14jVgbuanR2EVxmuF0 u2Vw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=15R95sI3orOm1afNRrBlwE1Woelo7GIqH37v7WJaPBE=; b=Gzym6iGrHffHvMF0xQ4RG0vMI/hnkcvopyq5eTR77FcTEnTHYd9AjuxtBBJVldxSho Aow2OMXxJH4TfQwwgQ6WESLi719qqeegNTAL3lAE4sye3GC5Jd0Td0ULNjw9PHgPJlth pcDSqdJjVGFw39tZMKzTlFgIc8Ef0fecSgncgtbEg6idzSm5JxCfMl0s8zZptCTQNRaP KP5NkVVkxwOcN9Z2J0HD9m+Cgzvhol4WdBvXK00m3gO/+Pjow+WBrscXNbFD2MKSmWOB 6fLw8RsfwL2u9u46IyZj2rDD6yQN6c4OtPMb7sCPoYluJSKnd1GrQcZM+7GJPFDofxbJ wFkg== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0/QeSogeVTnUcQQVIZqJnhuKBdh33Id2bSrvjxdjTaNFiTxi4s 05mdRyCULA1E1GJd68AVHN6Zn9IC3lAokBbDvm/qZIco8Dc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6VuEGXsiRouQptvM2RdHpjSfaSKzpvKWe4dEkI/pwqR2BwTEYFEwQWbA0ONqzT0Hq+5BONigVEcMkZcHSV8zM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:ea5:b0:782:4c82:d0a2 with SMTP id ho37-20020a1709070ea500b007824c82d0a2mr3580746ejc.171.1663863431642; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 09:17:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87sfkkdspw.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::634; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x634.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:919 Archived-At: --000000000000cc455505e94664e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Moved to emacs-tangents. On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 10:54 PM Po Lu wrote: > Drew Adams writes: > > [...] I do miss having the focus follow the mouse, > > which I recall from UNIX/X Window behavior long ago. > > Interesting. Personally, I don't miss that behavior at all, having > spent a lot of time on older X setups running uwm/twm in the past, one > complaint being the input focus randomly moving to other windows while > typing upon accidental mouse motion (typically caused by dirty mouse > balls.) > > It is also rather painful to program for, especially when your program > uses window nesting liberally. > Back in the day, X programs knew how to distinguish between windows appearing/disappearing on their own and the window under the mouse being changed by the window manager, and focus could be managed appropriately. WM's of the time also had (configurable) thresholds for whether such accidental movements would trigger focus changes or not. It was a more complicated, much more powerful model, but then the Windows95 "look and feel" took over roughly everything, Apple fused Mach, FreeBSD, and NeXTSTEP together into a workable alternative OS (from a UI perspective), and GUIs moved strongly away from power towards approachability. Then higher-level window/display/GUI systems started stomping out any possible diversity in capability in the name of some combination of "easier UI for less experienced users" and "put those expensive GPUs to use". As near as I can tell, this is how, for one glaring example, Gnome got to its current state, spawning things like XFCE, Cinnamon, and MATE along the way. Much like how Google, Microsoft, and a handful of others have made it practically impossible to run a private email server these days, GNOME, Wayland, and "choose: Win95 or Mac OS appearance" have made the days of things like gwm and exwm all but numbered. While there are definitely upsides, this is definitely not a strictly better world. ~Chad --000000000000cc455505e94664e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Moved to emacs-tangents.
On= Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 10:54 PM Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>=C2=A0[...] I do miss having the focus follow the mouse,
> which I recall from UNIX/X Window behavior long ago.

Interesting.=C2=A0 Personally, I don't miss that behavior at all, havin= g
spent a lot of time on older X setups running uwm/twm in the past, one
complaint being the input focus randomly moving to other windows while
typing upon accidental mouse motion (typically caused by dirty mouse
balls.)

It is also rather painful to program for, especially when your program
uses window nesting liberally.

Back in = the day, X programs knew how to distinguish between windows appearing/disap= pearing on their own and the window under=C2=A0the mouse being changed by t= he window=C2=A0manager, and focus could be managed=C2=A0appropriately. WM&#= 39;s of the time also had (configurable) thresholds for whether such accide= ntal movements would trigger focus changes or not.

It was a more complicated, much more powerful model, but then the Windows9= 5 "look and feel" took=C2=A0over roughly everything, Apple fused = Mach, FreeBSD, and NeXTSTEP together into a workable alternative OS (from a= UI perspective), and GUIs moved strongly away from power towards approacha= bility. Then higher-level window/display/GUI systems started stomping out a= ny possible diversity in capability in the name of some combination of &quo= t;easier UI for less experienced users" and "put those expensive = GPUs to use".=C2=A0

As near as I can tell, th= is is how, for one glaring example, Gnome got to its current state, spawnin= g things like XFCE, Cinnamon, and MATE along the way. Much like how Google,= Microsoft, and a handful of others have made it practically impossible to = run a private email server these days, GNOME, Wayland, and "choose: Wi= n95 or Mac OS appearance" have made the days of things like gwm and ex= wm all but numbered. While there are definitely=C2=A0upsides, this is defin= itely not a strictly better world.

~Chad
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