From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrew Hyatt Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Is ChatGTP SaaSS? (was: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: llm) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2023 12:59:26 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87v8d0iqa5.fsf@posteo.net> <87cyz3vaws.fsf@localhost> <87a5tzsbvl.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002e42a70604b3ab28" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27856"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-tangents@gnu.org, jporterbugs@gmail.com To: Ihor Radchenko Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 07 06:57:17 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qe74t-00070w-LF for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 06:57:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qe74a-0001iP-3f; Thu, 07 Sep 2023 00:56:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qdvsb-0006e2-4g for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 12:59:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qdvsS-0008JL-GB; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 12:59:48 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-5298e43bb67so2575393a12.1; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:59:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694019578; x=1694624378; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+bT8otJi0X58q//RAqxWE/GddrvCBICYbOjUTxMlJtY=; b=erLyTkNwVeiEIDgZILAtlQW+yK9fwX9ePsiivtxuliIV+HoUgD/lGZJ5GRmrne7v1+ SPb4egGrngLOL4OIlg2G7Nl9JGGDd4BURojNAZsz+sxP9Btc3fgJ8ISRFmCstvOObO9B y1PXYuwMs2oGsJyIQq7G0rSGD1L3Nv54xrg/n9Hi0nlPtSbSV5xx4iHv2Rl+lN5YhwFC Qp1lCy8xK46hgOUcNp099p5yyzb1G3VMTSVIP2NszxC4EgQ1PpbDSTAV/hTUyvbRZyPn 3uPkNF/Cz31bHb9Yd/ZCuEgksMWaextOVEQIX4I8Y0pW1pkwjD9PjYCehYbIXDcaJ6nU 33ug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1694019578; x=1694624378; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=+bT8otJi0X58q//RAqxWE/GddrvCBICYbOjUTxMlJtY=; b=KpwYjngsGsa54Pfwan6HHzFyw1mYN4IiQVqaTmTKDbS9XluO3er309gXe9KUeQCX4S FEfnfVM+Ue74A7BWxmbENVf8Xn97zbrOclz/pVYdifWcb25hncl3ufsIHk9/cQxLFFG2 P8q4ZIi+ZUYv79Q/TQ/zRWvbPpNz2kJJ5c4xgWRacEkzuWvbs+8SX8YO2gNIzePaZE9k o7Sd4AslwSQTrUv35JmvaLHba6FXXO6wbFS9IjMYglHzsgdTO8SSV/Kfkz7ZH0On5xq6 ZCZUS5hqmcGaw+WT/m3+07gRmoJi6icl2Q9HS3p68xqMOcT0FLrN7PCgn1FjOipaJOwI XXog== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx+QnOwc3H9PKAcak29gzFAi3UvPR70K2rROhLAMYsETdoxLHs6 vmmIyYdDfYtorn5VDE5WEOXh6rREeAPEhFiywUA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHRwoOdTjnY7mKLGtqVg7RRwUR0OBxnWhVwnMpvIlpTIbe/uZSJn1ZQ/brjZ54b5F14UtuKvsKIXL3rM91gszg= X-Received: by 2002:a50:ed05:0:b0:52a:38c3:1b4b with SMTP id j5-20020a50ed05000000b0052a38c31b4bmr234522eds.15.1694019577855; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 09:59:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87a5tzsbvl.fsf@localhost> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52d; envelope-from=ahyatt@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x52d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 07 Sep 2023 00:56:55 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:1053 Archived-At: --0000000000002e42a70604b3ab28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 8:50=E2=80=AFAM Ihor Radchenko = wrote: > [ Moving this to emacs-tangents ] > > Richard Stallman writes: > > > > > As for LLMs that run on servers, they are a different issue > entirely. > > > > They are all SaaSS (Service as a Software Substitute), and SaaSS = is > > > > always unjust. > > > > > > > > See > https://gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html > > > > for explanation. > > > > > I do not fully agree here. A number of more powerful LLMs have very > > > limiting hardware requirements. For example, some LLMs require > 64+Gbs of > > > RAM to run: > > > > That is true, and it is unfortunate. There may be no practical way > > to run a certain model except for SaaSS. > > > > That does not alter the injustice of SaaSS. So we should not silence > > our criticism of SaaSS in those cases, > > This is a rather theoretical consideration, but, talking about ChatGTP > (owned by OpenAI) specifically, should it even be considered SaaSS? > > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html > says: > > Using a joint project's servers isn't SaaSS because the computing > you do in this way isn't your own. For instance, if you edit pages > on Wikipedia, you are not doing your own computing; rather, you are > collaborating in Wikipedia's computing. Wikipedia controls its own > servers, but organizations as well as individuals encounter the > problem of SaaSS if they do their computing in someone else's > server. > > Then, ChatGTP is using the user input to train their model: > > https://techunwrapped.com/you-can-now-make-chatgpt-not-train-with-your-qu= eries/ > > ... what is constant is that the company can use > our conversations with ChatGPT to train the model. This is not a > surprise or a secret, the company has always reported it. > > There is no doubt that ChatGTP itself is not libre - its model is not > available to public. However, users of the ChatGPT model are technically > providing input that is collaboratively editing that model weights > (training the model further). So, using ChatGTP is a little bit akin > editing Wikipedia pages - collaborating to improve ChatGTP. > In addition, you can pay money to train your own model (via fine-tuning) on top of Open AI's model. Most other providers also let you do this. The model is "yours", and the training is controlled by you with no restrictions I know of. You can't separate it from the underlying model (for technical reasons). I don't know the legal aspects of restrictions on using your own fine-tuned model, but you still access it via SaaSS. > > -- > Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, > Org mode contributor, > Learn more about Org mode at . > Support Org development at , > or support my work at > --0000000000002e42a70604b3ab28 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 6, 2023 at 8:50=E2=80=AFAM Ih= or Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net= > wrote:
[ Moving this to emacs-tangents ]

Richard Stallman <rms@g= nu.org> writes:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> > As for LLMs that run on servers, they are a diff= erent issue entirely.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> > They are all SaaSS (Service as a Software Substi= tute), and SaaSS is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> > always unjust.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> > See http= s://gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> > for explanation.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> I do not fully agree here. A number of more powerful = LLMs have very
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> limiting hardware requirements. For example, some LLM= s require 64+Gbs of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> RAM to run:
>
> That is true, and it is unfortunate.=C2=A0 There may be no practical w= ay
> to run a certain model except for SaaSS.
>
> That does not alter the injustice of SaaSS.=C2=A0 So we should not sil= ence
> our criticism of SaaSS in those cases,

This is a rather theoretical consideration, but, talking about ChatGTP
(owned by OpenAI) specifically, should it even be considered SaaSS?

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/= who-does-that-server-really-serve.html
says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Using a joint project's servers isn't SaaSS because t= he computing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 you do in this way isn't your own. For instance, if you e= dit pages
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on Wikipedia, you are not doing your own computing; rather, y= ou are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 collaborating in Wikipedia's computing. Wikipedia control= s its own
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 servers, but organizations as well as individuals encounter t= he
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 problem of SaaSS if they do their computing in someone else&#= 39;s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 server.

Then, ChatGTP is using the user input to train their model:
https://techunwrapped= .com/you-can-now-make-chatgpt-not-train-with-your-queries/

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ... what is constant is that the company can use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 our conversations with ChatGPT to train the model. This is no= t a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 surprise or a secret, the company has always reported it.

There is no doubt that ChatGTP itself is not libre - its model is not
available to public. However, users of the ChatGPT model are technically providing input that is collaboratively editing that model weights
(training the model further). So, using ChatGTP is a little bit akin
editing Wikipedia pages - collaborating to improve ChatGTP.

In addition, you can pay money to train your own model= (via fine-tuning) on top of Open AI's model.=C2=A0 Most other provider= s also let you do this.=C2=A0 The model is "yours", and the train= ing is controlled by you with no restrictions I know of. You can't sepa= rate it from the underlying model (for technical reasons).=C2=A0 I don'= t know the legal aspects of restrictions on using your own fine-tuned model= , but you still access it via SaaSS.
=C2=A0

--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,=
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
--0000000000002e42a70604b3ab28--