Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Johan Myréen]

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>
> And then came the whole AI craze. 2017 Tensor Flow 1.0 was released and
> 2018 popularity of Python started going off the roof, but not in one step,
> but still incrementally (though less constant than before 2008).


The boost in Python's popularity from 2017 onwards is due to the NumPy and
SciPy libraries, which were used for "Data Science". The AI craze did not
start until later.

One of Python's strengths is the availability of useful libraries
("batteries included") combined with a simple syntax, which enable people
to get their job done.

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 (was: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other)

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2024-08-05 19:31]:
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > Please, everybody, take the Lisp vs Python argument off this
> > list, it is off-topic here. If you must discuss this, please
> > use the emacs-tangents@gnu.org mailing list instead.
> 
> Sure, but we are allowed to discuss how to make Elisp better?
> 
> Since Python has had enormous success, and Lisp hasn't - or if
> it had, it lost it - it might be a good ide to analyze what
> they (Python) did good.

Do you mean making Elisp better in the eyes of the world, or technically for Elisp users?

There are obviously many Elisp users, worth enough for developing it
technically, improving it, that is fine and good. And developers are
doing it. We are here in society of Elisp users.

For the eyes of the world, does it matter? I do not see how it does
matter.  Last time I checked, there must be millions of Emacs
users. Not all of them are loud and talking. I just guess that
majority does not even know about Elisp. But there is large number of
Emacs users, as there is large number of GNU/Linux users, and growing.

They may open editor and write something. They may not know about
Elisp, though they soon find out, so it is surely growing. Watching
our mailing lists I can see new users coming.

Comparisons like Python vs Elisp are useless as it is just interesting
for discussion and some language wars in old style.

What is useful is practical program, software, which is made and
provides final benefits.

A single program, no matter the language, can provide huge success.

For more technical insight into the war general Lisp vs Python:
http://www.norvig.com/python-lisp.html

>     Apply on data in data structures, not on data as it appears in
>     Emacs buffers.) But how ever well one does, it is gonna be _a
>     lot_ of of moving point around in Emacs Lisp, so don't worry :)

Statements were exaggerated. You have various data structures, and if
you need to operate on buffer, operate. Personally I operate on
hashes, and lists, and vectors, etc. Not on buffers. I cannot find
your statement universal.

> Example of problem from my favorite part of Emacs, ispell.el:
> 
> (defun ispell-mime-multipartp (&optional limit)
>   "Return multipart message start boundary or nil if none."
>   ;; caller must ensure `case-fold-search' is set to t
>   (and
>    (re-search-forward
>     "Content-Type: *multipart/\\([^ \t\n]*;[ \t]*[\n]?[ \t]*\\)+boundary="
>     limit t)
>    (let (boundary)
>      (if (looking-at "\"")
> 	 (let (start)
> 	   (forward-char)
> 	   (setq start (point))
> 	   (while (not (looking-at "\""))
> 	     (forward-char 1))
> 	   (setq boundary (buffer-substring-no-properties start (point))))
>        (let ((start (point)))
> 	 (while (looking-at "[-0-9a-zA-Z'()+_,./:=?]")
> 	   (forward-char))
> 	 (setq boundary (buffer-substring-no-properties start (point)))))
>      (if (< (length boundary) 1)
> 	 (setq boundary nil)
>        (concat "--" boundary)))))
> 
> Moving point around, looking, searching, seeing or not seeing.
> This is boring and error prone to write, and error prone to
> take over from someone else, or return to after x years.

Come on. All programming is about looking, searching, and of course it
can be boring and error prone, I remember machine language, of course
it is error prone, there is no programming language not error prone.

> You don't think in terms of the problem, or the solution for
> that matter, you are just somewhere in the buffer and
> according the the map you are completely lost!

That is why some developers are lost, some are okay with it.


Jean

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 (was: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other)

[Emanuel Berg]

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Jean Louis wrote:

>> Sure, but we are allowed to discuss how to make
>> Elisp better?
>> 
>> Since Python has had enormous success, and Lisp hasn't - or
>> if it had, it lost it - it might be a good ide to analyze
>> what they (Python) did good.
>
> Do you mean making Elisp better in the eyes of the world, or
> technically for Elisp users?

How nice to hear from you, thanks for helping me out that
other time, so okay, this old and boring discussion tho - I'm
just gonna answer this one message - okay - ... - really,
ONE message, I saying.

First, what I mean "better": as a programming language,
as technology.

> There are obviously many Elisp users, worth enough for
> developing it technically, improving it, that is fine and
> good. And developers are doing it. We are here in society of
> Elisp users.

Unfortunately, in terms of features, we have been falling
behind majorly, and not just compared to powerhouses like
Common Lisp and Python.

We have also not optimized Emacs for speed and convenience, we
did not learn from the smartphone generation.

Yes, The developers have done _a lot_ but they have not been
the type of leaders who use their surroundings to make them
better, and become even better themselves. They want to do
everything themselves and if you are just a few bunch of guys
doing that, that's gonna be a problem.

> For the eyes of the world, does it matter? I do not see how
> it does matter. Last time I checked, there must be millions
> of Emacs users.

Haha :) When did you check Jean, and how, and what was the
exact result please?

There are more Emacs users now than in the 90s and early 00s
but relative speaking Emacs position is way down compared
to then. This was bound to happen, maybe it is healthy even,
it doesn't bug me, but I want to have all the features
everyone else has, or close to it, unfortunately we don't.

> Not all of them are loud and talking.

Rumors has it there is 230 members on this list and they don't
all like Emanuel's messages. But I think everyone likes Jean's
messages so it evens up :)

> I just guess that majority does not even know about Elisp.
> But there is large number of Emacs users, as there is large
> number of GNU/Linux users, and growing.

Elisp is a fringe, fringe sport for the computer elite.
Even Lisp as a whole are a pretty marginalized bunch.

> Comparisons like Python vs Elisp are useless as it is just
> interesting for discussion and some language wars in
> old style.

Impossible to compare, unfortunately (for us). But I still
like Elisp more.

For example, can you do _this_ in Python? (Well, yes! I'm sure
they can.)

Blog post coming up really soon now as the saying goes ...

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/bad/meta/screenshot/grad.png


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-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 (was: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other)

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2024-10-24 00:13]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> >> Sure, but we are allowed to discuss how to make
> >> Elisp better?
> >> 
> >> Since Python has had enormous success, and Lisp hasn't - or
> >> if it had, it lost it - it might be a good ide to analyze
> >> what they (Python) did good.
> >
> > Do you mean making Elisp better in the eyes of the world, or
> > technically for Elisp users?
> 
> How nice to hear from you, thanks for helping me out that
> other time, so okay, this old and boring discussion tho - I'm
> just gonna answer this one message - okay - ... - really,
> ONE message, I saying.
> 
> First, what I mean "better": as a programming language,
> as technology.

I am here only to poke on you ;-)

But I can't replace Emacs Lisp with something else. I have got
interface and it is sufficient, I need not think of plethora of
elements. We manage employees, documents, accounting, reports of all
kinds, I mean it is huge. I have switched from Perl to Emacs.

** Statistics 

╔════════════════════════╦════════╦══════════════════════════════╦═══════╗
║ Total number of people ║ 242546 ║ Total Hyperdocuments         ║ 62993 ║
╠════════════════════════╬════════╬══════════════════════════════╬═══════╣
║ People in last week    ║ 108    ║ Hyperdocuments in last week  ║ 216   ║
╠════════════════════════╬════════╬══════════════════════════════╬═══════╣
║ People in last month   ║ 261    ║ Hyperdocuments in last month ║ 841   ║
╚════════════════════════╩════════╩══════════════════════════════╩═══════╝

All that above is managed through Emacs interface.

So if Python is better, it is for me personal issue, not technical
issue. I have got no oversight and capacity to measure what is better.


-- 
Jean


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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10 (was: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other)

[Emanuel Berg]

Jean Louis wrote:

> But I can't replace Emacs Lisp with something else. I have
> got interface and it is sufficient, I need not think of
> plethora of elements. We manage employees, documents,
> accounting, reports of all kinds, I mean it is huge. I have
> switched from Perl to Emacs.

Oh, you are not replacing it alright. No one said it was bad
or distasteful. It is very good and many, including I, like it
and use it every day. So relax Jean, you are completely
normal ;) You have been good to Elisp and Elisp has been good
to you.

No, I think the frustration, IIRC, ws because

(1) No one else was enthusiastic about making Elisp better, in
    part for its own sake, to make och try to make Emacs
    a Lisp powerhouse up there with CL and Clojure (and
    others); and

(2) even more so, I was frustrated with that boasting,
    functional programming is superior (absolutely not true),
    Lisp is built-in superior to other languages, Lisps syntax
    is an advantage, Lisp programs are short and elegant (yes,
    sometimes, before they get too long, e.g. gnus-sum.el [13
    239 lines], Lisp programmers have a better mental
    understanding of their programs compared to other
    programmers and their sorry languages.

Truthfully and honestly, 2024, one would put it like this:

- if you care about/for Lisp, do it - that is, however, the
  only reason to do it, if you don't care for it, there are
  many alternatives, don't do Lisp, or do just a little
  for culture.

- if you care about/for Lisp, but not Emacs, don't do Elisp,
  there are again many Lispy alternatives that are,
  marginalized as they may be, better that Elisp.

But if you care for Emacs, if you care for Lisp, and maybe the
bigger picture with the community, eco-system around it, yes,
why not? That attitude/boasting bugs me but that doesn't mean
Elisp is bad.

> ** Statistics 
>
> ╔════════════════════════╦════════╦══════════════════════════════╦═══════╗
> ║ Total number of people ║ 242546 ║ Total Hyperdocuments         ║ 62993 ║
> ╠════════════════════════╬════════╬══════════════════════════════╬═══════╣
> ║ People in last week    ║ 108    ║ Hyperdocuments in last week  ║ 216   ║
> ╠════════════════════════╬════════╬══════════════════════════════╬═══════╣
> ║ People in last month   ║ 261    ║ Hyperdocuments in last month ║ 841   ║
> ╚════════════════════════╩════════╩══════════════════════════════╩═══════╝
>
> All that above is managed through Emacs interface.

That's exactly right, that's how you do it, Jean! Digits and
order bring fortune to _everyone_.

Here is a screenshot of it:
  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/emacs-data/jeans-hypertable.png
  
I also try to make an honest buck now and then.
Did you hear of the next installment of Police Quest,
Sierra-On Line's old franchise, that is coming for Emacs?

  https://dataswamp.org/~incal/sneak/police.png

> So if Python is better, it is for me personal issue, not
> technical issue. I have got no oversight and capacity to
> measure what is better.

It is better in the sense, give 100 programmers 100 programs
to write, then do the same to 100 other programmers but the
same task, one group uses Python and one uses Elisp, what will
happen with 100% certainty is that the Python guys will

- complete their task (all 100? possible)
- complete many, many more programs
- their programs will be much better
- they will do it faster, i.e., less man hours
- and with much less frustration during the process

PS. EOD, can't do this anymore, okay? :) DS.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal


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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Joel Reicher]

Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> No, I think the frustration, IIRC, ws because
>
> (1) No one else was enthusiastic about making Elisp better, in 
>     part for its own sake, to make och try to make Emacs a Lisp 
>     powerhouse up there with CL and Clojure (and others); and

To my mind that's a bit like saying make a mouse trap better by 
making it more like a bear trap.

By all means make elisp better, but don't compare it to languages 
that are used for different things.

> (2) even more so, I was frustrated with that boasting, 
>     functional programming is superior (absolutely not true), 
>     Lisp is built-in superior to other languages, Lisps syntax 
>     is an advantage, Lisp programs are short and elegant (yes, 
>     sometimes, before they get too long, e.g. gnus-sum.el [13 
>     239 lines], Lisp programmers have a better mental 
>     understanding of their programs compared to other 
>     programmers and their sorry languages.

Different languages are good for different things. Saying one 
language is better than another only makes sense if they are being 
used for the same thing, and only in the context of that thing.

I like Lisp, but I wouldn't use it for everything.

Regards,

        - Joel

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

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Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> writes:

> Yes, The developers have done _a lot_ but they have not been
> the type of leaders who use their surroundings to make them
> better, and become even better themselves. They want to do
> everything themselves and if you are just a few bunch of guys
> doing that, that's gonna be a problem.

Whom do you see as developers here?

Given that melpa and elpa and elpa-nongnu exist where outside devs do a
lot of work, you can’t just mean the core programmers, because they
obviously don’t do everything by themselves.

So you would have to mean the package authors.

But that includes people who learned from vim (and got many vim-users to
switch to Spacemacs or Doom). Who learned from language servers. Who
created full-blown IDEs as well as lean, continuously built Make
integration and flycheck linting.

So you can’t really mean these, either.

As a result I’m at a loss as to whom your comment actually matches.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

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"Abraham S.A.H." writes:

> Emanuel Berg wrote:
>> I didn't say that. You know why? Because I didn't mean it.
>> It doesn't take much experience to do cool things fast
>> in Python, it is a fact.
>
> I agree to disagree, Emanuel!  Sorry, but I do not think “Python is
> a generally better programming language”.  Perhaps Python is very good
> in some aspects but not in general, and I know Python better than any
> other language.
>
> I think that Python is popular in  the sense of “there are more Python
> programmers than most other languages”.   And I think “In the software
> industry, technical  merits of a  programming language do not  make it
> popular.”!  Java and C and JS  didn't become popular only due to their
> technical merits.

While this is true (with the caveat "only" which you do include), there
is actually something strange about how Python spread.

When looking at how Python spread: compared to other languages and
before Python 3 (2008) it was the odd one out. It was slowly but
constantly growing in popularity. It didn’t have one killer feature, but
it was growing organically from genuine fans:
https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/python/

In 2008 it had a boost in popularity and then actually has been losing —
in 2013 when I switched on to Guile,¹ many others seem to have done the
same. The TIOBE rating of Python *halved* between 2013 and 2014.

And then came the whole AI craze. 2017 Tensor Flow 1.0 was released and
2018 popularity of Python started going off the roof, but not in one
step, but still incrementally (though less constant than before 2008).

Before 2008 and after 2018 there has been something not seen in other
languages. Other languages have a cycle of an event pushing popularity
up, then waning popularity. Python didn’t.

It grew more continuously and that may point to an actual quality of the
language.

https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/

¹ why and how I switched from Python to Guile Scheme:
  https://www.draketo.de/py2guile
  
> Do you know Python and Lisp and acknowledge their difference?

I do. Since 2013 I’ve been using Guile as my main hobby-language.
Between around 2006 and 2013 I’ve been using Python almost exclusively —
and a lot, 2011 to 2013 full-time.

> For  removing  a  statement  in   Python,  use  `kill-line`  (C-k)  or
> `kill-whole-line`.  For removing a  statement in Lisp, use `kill-sexp`
> (C-M-k).

This often moves the parentheses to the previous line, so the diff
you’ll be looking at to review the change will show a changed line and a
deleted line.

> You  are using  your  own  presumptions to  reason  out, and  convince
> others.  Your presumptions are not mine,  and your facts are not facts
> to me.

Either they are facts or they are not. Please don’t go mixing this up.

You cannot say “these are not my facts” without leaving the grounds of
logic.

The Tiobe index I linked above is a fact, but its interpretation is not.
Whether it is genuinely better can’t be established as fact, but that it
spread differently from other languages is clearly visible.

That it doesn’t take much time to do things fast in Python is a fact,
proven over and over again, but the interpretation *why* that is and
whether it means that Python is a better language is not.

And all that still doesn’t mean that I prefer it (why else would I use
Guile instead and write in an emacs-devel channel — now emacs-tangent?).

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Jean Louis]

* Abraham S.A.H." via "Emacs development discussions. <emacs-devel@gnu.org> [2024-08-07 21:59]:
> > Emacs-w3m is from Japan <3
> 
> As I said, perhaps only in Japan.
> 
> However, as an Asian, I know no university in my country or neighbour
> countries teaching Lisp. Just a few pages of history and no more.
> But they teach C, Java and Python.

But what happens after, they wander into the wide world, armed with
their Java and Python knowledge, only to discover the secret society
of Emacs enthusiasts—those mythical beings who can summon text-editing
magic with a mere key combination. That is how people come to Emacs
Lisp, they get tired of what they already know.

Once they discover the joy of Emacs, the circle is complete.

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Abraham S.A.H. via Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists]

Indeed

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Re: 10 problems with Elisp, part 10

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> [2024-08-09 10:20]:
> Abraham S.A.H." via "Emacs development discussions. wrote:
> 
> >> It doesn't take much experience to do cool things fast in
> >> Python, it is a fact.
> >
> > I agree to disagree, Emanuel!  Sorry, but I do not think
> > "Python is a generally better programming language".
> 
> Devel time faster than in Lisp, is what I'm saying.

I believe that the speed of development is influenced by how the
programmer has structured the foundational components.

I believe Lisp-like languages are ideal for this purpose. Unlike many
other languages, which can make speeding up development a challenge,
Lisp-like languages make the process much easier and more
straightforward.

I am sorry that you haven't arrived at that understanding yet, but
it's great that you grasped it in another language.

What works, works.

I would use software in any language if it gives me product or service
I need.

> Maybe one could have a Lisp that also was as fast or almost as
> fast, if one focused on that aspect.

I gave you references, Lisp is so much faster than your praised babies.


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