From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Help building Pen.el (GPT for emacs) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 07:41:21 +0000 Message-ID: <87czr89n1a.fsf@posteo.net> References: <83im1948mj.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf642jeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83r1fp1es9.fsf@gnu.org> <837dhg1a1l.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28150"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: stefan@marxist.se, emacs-tangents@gnu.org, mullikine@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, bugs@gnu.support To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 24 09:59:57 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m7CZh-0007Ai-Le for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:59:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56950 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m7CZg-0002vC-Nv for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 03:59:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53570) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m7CHs-0000R4-Dt for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 03:41:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:38515) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m7CHn-00006P-11 for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 03:41:28 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCA57240028 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:41:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1627112482; bh=7hfoJeKr8Yqu3jNEaY1pzCrRyYb0tRe2vsMDNmPSgEg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:From; b=jM1bYBB4IEnyQScdSKJN2zZpRH3pmB9nKsiwqx0SnskYeLqr9UG4ZJRsaEYGCyCg0 Ype1wKtPhbdJ6u74NU7TGPIc3sy2SzU/BqvkBesgKdLRQ8sb5Yc6xDlkBY0AA0B8xz 727Z91+sTgYv6tYAvfi+2ih5Q2gbdpqFjy4hBt+zuMZhZfKDsjDzd715UMyZ8rRl1H u+xcy8S9d7/aJfLGNA22QPsSBxSBk9AY4mfTOWLsDs0kJS/C4Fa4LyzBeFvuBG/5XV RRMFCL7S3UuqMNPhBN3DWQhIs/hMsNZBb7dnEz3YhEFIKKFfmAC8cm5sdNyarVX8dT cxhviF48tDY1A== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4GWymd5bdKz6tmH; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:41:21 +0200 (CEST) Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEYHHqUhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAp3GdmYJ6tm5McweY6dEvIYIiry+Oz9rU4MH6NHWK0Ee0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiQBBMWCAA4FiEEDM2H44ZoPt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwMFCwkIBwIGFQoJ CAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQtVrAHPRh1FyTkgEAjlbGPxFchvMbxzAES3r8QLuZgCxeAXunM9gh io0ePtUBALVhh9G6wIoZhl0gUCbQpoN/UJHI08Gm1qDob5zDxnIHuDgEYHHqUhIKKwYBBAGXVQEF AQEHQNcRB+MUimTMqoxxMMUERpOR+Q4b1KgncDZkhrO2ql1tAwEIB4h4BBgWCAAgFiEEDM2H44Zo Pt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwwACgkQtVrAHPRh1Fw1JwD/Qo7kvtib8jy7puyWrSv0MeTS g8qIxgoRWJE/KKdkCLEA/jb9b9/g8nnX+UcwHf/4VfKsjExlnND3FrBviXUW6NcB In-Reply-To: <837dhg1a1l.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:49:10 +0300") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -8 X-Spam_score: -0.9 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.9 / 5.0 requ) DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 03:59:46 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:681 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Richard Stallman >> Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 21:14:23 -0400 >> Cc: stefan@marxist.se, eliz@gnu.org, mullikine@gmail.com, >> emacs-tangents@gnu.org >> >> > > That's not what happens with these services: they don't _copy_ code >> > > from other software (that won't work, because the probability of the >> > > variables being called by other names is 100%, and thus such code, if >> > > pasted into your program, will not compile). What they do, they >> > > extract ideas and algorithms from those other places, and express them >> > > in terms of your variables and your data types. So licenses are not >> > > relevant here. >> >> > According to online reviews chunks of code is copied even verbatim and >> > people find from where. Even if modified, it still requires licensing >> > compliance. >> >> From what I have read, it seems that the behavior of copilot runs on a >> spectrum from the first description to the second description. I >> expect that in many cases, nothing copyrightable has been copied, but >> in some cases copilot does copy a substantial amount from a >> copyrighted work. > > It cannot be a verbatim copy, because at least the variables, and > sometimes also the data types, need to be renamed. Whether the result > is still under the original copyright cannot be established without > actually comparing the two versions of the code. So any general > flat rejection of the idea of these services on these grounds is not > serious, IMO. Not necessarily, if it generates a pure, top-level function. Someone could type something like "Sort list of postcodes" and it generates a Radix Sort function. And if this is part of some code that was copied a lot, the model might tend to generate this verbatim even more likely. Or that is at least my understanding. -- Philip Kaludercic