From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alexandre Garreau Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:42:30 +0100 Message-ID: <8763867.BOMLdT1YOJ@galex-713.eu> References: <87ee3p4xn4.fsf@zoho.eu> <5050033.Gxf8NU8Bx7@galex-713.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="nextPart6430583.QSQF4dpTs5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30955"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Jacob Hrbek , emacs-tangents@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 28 15:59:50 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nOhV7-0007pR-Sm for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:59:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52370 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOhV6-000114-Pa for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:59:48 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52840) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOhEY-0004Hm-VD for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:42:42 -0500 Original-Received: from [2a00:5884:8305::1] (port=41896 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOhEW-0001LX-Dv for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:42:42 -0500 Original-Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOhEM-00DrsS-Lf; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:42:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:5884:8305::1 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:5884:8305::1; envelope-from=galex-713@galex-713.eu; helo=galex-713.eu X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:55:37 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:789 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --nextPart6430583.QSQF4dpTs5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Le diman=C4=89o, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis = a =C3=A9crit : > * Alexandre Garreau [2022-02-27 14:52]: > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or > > threatened. >=20 > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to > be the cause. But it is not cause. I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like some hi= gh officials,=20 generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on the other hand, i have the h= idden hope=20 many russian militaries, both low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act les= s competent in=20 order to save lifes). But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or n= ot (he perfectly=20 looks like the type), I don=E2=80=99t judge, and limit to =C2=ABPutin and t= he absence of democracy=C2=BB. It is always =C2=ABmore complicated=C2=BB, but it doesn=E2=80=99t mean the = stance has to be. > You have to review history of Ukraine and how Germany installed > organizations back in time, history of anti-semitism in Ukraine, > including history of Ukrainian Nazism. I know it=E2=80=99s kinda worse than here, but everytime I speak to ukraini= ans about it, it looks like=20 it isn=E2=80=99t. So I guess this must be more complicated than that, up t= o the point it=E2=80=99s not that=20 relevant anymore. > I do not condone ANY war. I am against any wars. but saying that is not sufficient when in contrast with the context you see= m to > > That=E2=80=99s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to people far > > away is difficult, especially when a such war would have been > > difficult to predict in advance, and totally ununderstandable once > > it happened=E2=80=A6 it=E2=80=99s totally useless shit=E2=80=A6 Putin h= as just got mad. >=20 > It was maybe for you individually difficult to predict. It was planned > and manipulated since many years by West in order to minimize power of > East. Ukrainian Nazis have been sponsored by US congress. Why would US > congress sponsor Ukrainian Nazis? Because they are stupid, they also sponsored daesh to get rid of war with a= lqaida, alqaida,=20 nazis and talibans to get rid of communists, etc. and each time it turned b= ack against=20 them. =C2=ABWhy would they=C2=BB is no proof, mere help to imagination of = new hypothesis. Keep in=20 mind Hanlon=E2=80=99s razor.=20 > I see and take US presidents, US congress, Western politicians and > Putin; all together; All together with south america, whole europe and great parts of Asia. Not= forgetting=20 almost no countries support the war, they mostly stay neutral or ignore the= situation, for=20 the rest. > More references for people to get better understanding of recent > history in Ukraine: Azov bataillion is one batailion. It is a shame it has been officially tol= erated and integrated,=20 but in times of war of aggression even I wouldn=E2=80=99t be picky about su= pport. and a mere=20 batailion is no excuse for attacking kyiv. not for taking so many cities. = and certainly NOT=20 for bombing. Bombing necessarily is the risk of killing civilians (i have = friends who had=20 friends killed by a mere shockwave from a different building), and cannot b= e seen as a=20 mere =C2=ABattack under the bad guys=C2=BB, it is necessarily an indirect a= ttack on a whole country. =20 If you advocate to care for civilians, you never bomb inside cities. If yo= u advocate to spare=20 innocent lives (for instance conscripted, internship or young soldiers) you= don=E2=80=99t bomb=20 places with any human around. There have already been bombing and killed civilians, so you=E2=80=99d need= a really really really=20 obvious and enormous justification for that, and you have none. > > Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easier > > psychologically than sitting in despair giving up=E2=80=A6 Ukrainians a= re > > showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, although in > > front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to > > surrender in front of a higher power=E2=80=A6 >=20 > Majority of Ukrainians DO NOT WANT criminals such as terrorists of > Azov Battalion operating in their country. Before the conflict I would say =C2=ABright=C2=BB, since the rise of far ri= ght I would say =C2=ABidk=C2=BB, since=20 beginning of war I=E2=80=99m pretty sure they totally don=E2=80=99t care. > Thus "freedom" is related > to peace, Actually I disagree. Freedom, such as democracy, best operates in continuou= s (but=20 nonviolent) conflict. > Now Putin comes to "save people" -- what is there so much different > than what US did in Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, and many other countries? None, and it is not hard to find people, even in US, opposing those wars of= the US. Btw it is already a sad and hard fact more russians have now been killed th= an over 5 years=20 in syria, this is a good metrics they were lied to, and that ukrainians are= not welcoming=20 them. it=E2=80=99s not only azov that did that. > > i don=E2=80=99t understand why nato doesn=E2=80=99t take the risk being= bombed to > > help ukrainians. >=20 > Russia as country does not attack Ukrainians. Definitely not. There > are innocent victims and I do not approve of that. that=E2=80=99s a normal consequence of bombing, if they didn=E2=80=99t want= that they wouldn=E2=80=99t bomb > Their families are intertwined. that=E2=80=99s why it=E2=80=99s so hard and painful > I never was > thinking of Ukrainian people as being so much different from > Russians. It is very hard for me to think that "Russia" attacks > "Ukrainian" for reasons of being Ukrainian. it is putin=E2=80=99s army who attack the ukrainians that putin told to att= ack, based on lies > What I see is that Russia is concerned for crimes in Ukraine not being > handled by Ukrainian themselves; now they have military intervention. >=20 > That Uganda has sent recently troops in Congo to fight rebels is very > similar situation; one could simply say that Uganda occupied parts of > Congo with purpose to exterminate rebels; but the question is always =C2=ABis congo officially fighting back against = uganda?=C2=BB. also no consent has ever been asked to russians for this war, and most of r= ussians are=20 against it. that=E2=80=99s largely sufficient alone to be against it. --nextPart6430583.QSQF4dpTs5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

Le diman=C4=89o, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Lou= is a =C3=A9crit :

>= ; * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:

>= ; > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe

>= ; > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or

>= ; > threatened.

>= ;

>= ; I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated

>= ; then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin to

>= ; be the cause. But it is not cause.


I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like some= high officials, generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on the other h= and, i have the hidden hope many russian militaries, both low and high in h= ierarchy, purposedly act less competent in order to save lifes).  But = as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not (he perfectly looks like= the type), I don=E2=80=99t judge, and limit to =C2=ABPutin and the absence= of democracy=C2=BB.


It is always =C2=ABmore complicated=C2=BB, but it doesn=E2=80=99t mean t= he stance has to be.


> You have to review history of Ukraine and how Germany installed

>= ; organizations back in time, history of anti-semitism in Ukraine,

>= ; including history of Ukrainian Nazism.


I know it=E2=80=99s kinda worse than here, but everytime I speak to ukra= inians about it, it looks like it isn=E2=80=99t.  So I guess this must= be more complicated than that, up to the point it=E2=80=99s not that relev= ant anymore.


> I do not condone ANY war. I am against any wars.


but saying that is not sufficient when in contrast with the context you = seem to


> > That=E2=80=99s likely right, but asking people sacrificing to = people far

>= ; > away is difficult, especially when a such war would have been

>= ; > difficult to predict in advance, and totally ununderstandable once

>= ; > it happened=E2=80=A6 it=E2=80=99s totally useless shit=E2=80=A6 Puti= n has just got mad.

>= ;

>= ; It was maybe for you individually difficult to predict. It was planned

>= ; and manipulated since many years by West in order to minimize power of

>= ; East. Ukrainian Nazis have been sponsored by US congress. Why would US

>= ; congress sponsor Ukrainian Nazis?


Because they are stupid, they also sponsored daesh to get rid of war wit= h alqaida, alqaida, nazis and talibans to get rid of communists, etc. and e= ach time it turned back against them.  =C2=ABWhy would they=C2=BB is n= o proof, mere help to imagination of new hypothesis.  Keep in mind Han= lon=E2=80=99s razor.




> I see and take US presidents, US congress, Western poli= ticians and

>= ; Putin; all together;


All together with south america, whole europe and great parts of Asia.&n= bsp; Not forgetting almost no countries support the war, they mostly stay n= eutral or ignore the situation, for the rest.


> More references for people to get better understanding of recent

>= ; history in Ukraine:


Azov bataillion is one batailion.  It is a shame it has been offici= ally tolerated and integrated, but in times of war of aggression even I wou= ldn=E2=80=99t be picky about support.  and a mere batailion is no excu= se for attacking kyiv.  not for taking so many cities.  and certa= inly NOT for bombing.  Bombing necessarily is the risk of killing civi= lians (i have friends who had friends killed by a mere shockwave from a dif= ferent building), and cannot be seen as a mere =C2=ABattack under the bad g= uys=C2=BB, it is necessarily an indirect attack on a whole country.  I= f you advocate to care for civilians, you never bomb inside cities.  I= f you advocate to spare innocent lives (for instance conscripted, internshi= p or young soldiers) you don=E2=80=99t bomb places with any human around.

There have already been bombing and killed civilians, so you=E2=80=99d n= eed a really really really obvious and enormous justification for that, and= you have none.


> > Also I believe to suffer standing for freedom is somewhat easi= er

>= ; > psychologically than sitting in despair giving up=E2=80=A6 Ukrainian= s are

>= ; > showing great pride and attachment to their freedom, although in

>= ; > front of nato lack of help it would have been more logical to

>= ; > surrender in front of a higher power=E2=80=A6

>= ;

>= ; Majority of Ukrainians DO NOT WANT criminals such as terrorists of

>= ; Azov Battalion operating in their country.


Before the conflict I would say =C2=ABright=C2=BB, since the rise of far= right I would say =C2=ABidk=C2=BB, since beginning of war I=E2=80=99m pret= ty sure they totally don=E2=80=99t care.


> Thus "freedom" is related

>= ; to peace,


Actually I disagree. Freedom, such as democracy, best operates in contin= uous (but nonviolent) conflict.


> Now Putin comes to "save people" -- what is there so much= different

>= ; than what US did in Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, and many other countries?


None, and it is not hard to find people, even in US, opposing those wars= of the US.


Btw it is already a sad and hard fact more russians have now been killed= than over 5 years in syria, this is a good metrics they were lied to, and = that ukrainians are not welcoming them.  it=E2=80=99s not only azov th= at did that.



> > i don=E2=80=99t understand why nato doesn=E2=80=99t take= the risk being bombed to

>= ; > help ukrainians.

>= ;

>= ; Russia as country does not attack Ukrainians. Definitely not. There

>= ; are innocent victims and I do not approve of that.


that=E2=80=99s a normal consequence of bombing, if they didn=E2=80=99t w= ant that they wouldn=E2=80=99t bomb


> Their families are intertwined.


that=E2=80=99s why it=E2=80=99s so hard and painful


> I never was

>= ; thinking of Ukrainian people as being so much different from

>= ; Russians. It is very hard for me to think that "Russia" attacks=

>= ; "Ukrainian" for reasons of being Ukrainian.


it is putin=E2=80=99s army who attack the ukrainians that putin told to = attack, based on lies


> What I see is that Russia is concerned for crimes in Ukraine not be= ing

>= ; handled by Ukrainian themselves; now they have military intervention.

>= ;

>= ; That Uganda has sent recently troops in Congo to fight rebels is very

>= ; similar situation; one could simply say that Uganda occupied parts of

>= ; Congo with purpose to exterminate rebels;


but the question is always =C2=ABis congo officially fighting back again= st uganda?=C2=BB.


also no consent has ever been asked to russians for this war, and most o= f russians are against it. that=E2=80=99s largely sufficient alone to be ag= ainst it.


--nextPart6430583.QSQF4dpTs5--