From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: Help building Pen.el (GPT for emacs) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 09:49:10 +0300 Message-ID: <837dhg1a1l.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83im1948mj.fsf@gnu.org> <83lf642jeh.fsf@gnu.org> <83r1fp1es9.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29921"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: mullikine@gmail.com, emacs-tangents@gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se, bugs@gnu.support To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 24 08:49:48 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m7BTn-0007eD-TA for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 08:49:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46924 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m7BTm-0008QQ-HJ for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 02:49:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50044) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m7BTZ-0008PP-VI for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 02:49:33 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60748) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m7BTZ-0007Bq-0D; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 02:49:33 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4310 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m7BTS-0006Yg-L9; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 02:49:26 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Fri, 23 Jul 2021 21:14:23 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:676 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2021 21:14:23 -0400 > Cc: stefan@marxist.se, eliz@gnu.org, mullikine@gmail.com, > emacs-tangents@gnu.org > > > > That's not what happens with these services: they don't _copy_ code > > > from other software (that won't work, because the probability of the > > > variables being called by other names is 100%, and thus such code, if > > > pasted into your program, will not compile). What they do, they > > > extract ideas and algorithms from those other places, and express them > > > in terms of your variables and your data types. So licenses are not > > > relevant here. > > > According to online reviews chunks of code is copied even verbatim and > > people find from where. Even if modified, it still requires licensing > > compliance. > > From what I have read, it seems that the behavior of copilot runs on a > spectrum from the first description to the second description. I > expect that in many cases, nothing copyrightable has been copied, but > in some cases copilot does copy a substantial amount from a > copyrighted work. It cannot be a verbatim copy, because at least the variables, and sometimes also the data types, need to be renamed. Whether the result is still under the original copyright cannot be established without actually comparing the two versions of the code. So any general flat rejection of the idea of these services on these grounds is not serious, IMO. Of course, someone like Jean will not use any code until a bunch of lawyers submit an official opinion about the legal implications, but IMO that's a radical view that doesn't make a lot of sense, especially since none of the code accessible openly via the net can be proprietary, for obvious reasons. Jean could do whatever he personally likes, but his radical views don't necessarily bind the GNU project in general and Emacs in particular. Moreover, ironically Jean bases his views on opinions and issues expressed by clear opponents of Free Software. The strongest drive behind many of these blogs' aversion from these services is the fear that GPL-licensed code creeps into proprietary software produced by enterprises and their software subcontractors, because that would require them to make the sources available or at least put them at a risk of lawsuits. It is a well-known fact that most, if not all, software contracts for proprietary software nowadays include explicit prohibition of using GPL-licensed code in the product. It is those people that serve these contracts and enterprises who drive the whoop-la about licensing issues in code offered by these AI-based services. So before embracing their FUD and biased opinions, I really suggest to actually look at the code, compare it with the original, and make an independent assessment of both whether it's a "copy" from the copyright POV and of the licenses of the original code.