From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alexandre Garreau Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:58:52 +0100 Message-ID: <6835146.iCjXABvquL@galex-713.eu> References: <87ee3p4xn4.fsf@zoho.eu> <87czj7gpyp.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="nextPart5993691.SQyoMl2o7t" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40239"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Max Brieiev , emacs-tangents@gnu.org To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 28 16:09:19 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nOheI-000AG0-EE for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 16:09:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44824 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOheH-0006oQ-Ey for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:09:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOhUP-0008FP-NC for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:59:06 -0500 Original-Received: from [2a00:5884:8305::1] (port=41904 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nOhUN-0005kC-0z for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 09:59:05 -0500 Original-Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nOhUC-00DsGn-Ks; Mon, 28 Feb 2022 15:58:53 +0100 In-Reply-To: X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:5884:8305::1 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:5884:8305::1; envelope-from=galex-713@galex-713.eu; helo=galex-713.eu X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:03:54 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:790 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --nextPart5993691.SQyoMl2o7t Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 13-a horo kaj 31:21 CET Jean Louis a =C3= =A9crit : > * Max Brieiev [2022-02-28 15:01]: > > Jean Louis writes: > > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated > > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin > > > to > > > be the cause. But it is not cause. > >=20 > > I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a > > complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks > > Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our > > land. >=20 > That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda? Yes. When something is obvious, and you bring misplaced skepticism without= any=20 contradiction of the facts in front of you, nor sufficient justification fo= r your position. it is. > That "political situation is more complicated than person stated" -- > that is propaganda? Yes. If I come to a Shoah memorial and started saying, without any justifi= cation nor=20 explanation =C2=AByou know, the situation for nazis is more complicated tha= n you stated=C2=BB it will=20 be just neonazi propaganda. > That we shall accuse Putin solely for conflict -- is propaganda? You said the opposite, that we =C2=ABshall not=C2=BB. > You my friend you twist words. That is my opinion, not propaganda. I > have no resources to make any propaganda, neither I am hired by > Ukrainian nor Russians, neither related directly or indirectly, apart > from my grandgrandfather who was Ukrainian. Propaganda does not have to be paid or hired. Propaganda is from latin and= initially=20 refered to the popagation of christian ideas. Then it was by the East bloc= =2E Neither of these=20 propagandas ever were capitalist, based on money or hiring. > And of course nobody likes war. I have used "save" or "help" under > quotes to indicate a meaning, meaning that I am quoting it and not > necessarily condining it. I have stated multiple times for people not > to misunderstand me that I am against any wars. That=E2=80=99s why it doesn=E2=80=99t mean anything to just state that. Sa= ying you don=E2=80=99t like, condone it, or=20 you are against it, is of no value in front of saying otherwise than the wo= rldwide majority=20 opposing it with no proof, bringing unjustified skepticism. You need proof= s or rational=20 criticism of the facts that weren=E2=80=99t enough to convince you to expla= in the suspension of your=20 judgement. > Communication is the key. >=20 > People lack communication skills and negotiation skills. >=20 > Little friendship and love can solve it all. >=20 > > It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are > > on our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our > > freedom. This is as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had > > never been before the war started. >=20 > Then you must be very young person. >=20 > Thinking in simplicities is what said propaganda wants you to do. Take > young boys and die for country. >=20 > Shit. >=20 > I recommend you and your family to depart, situation will be better, > Russia will not take Ukraine, but don't participate in bloody war for > patriotic reasons. Defend your family by putting them in safe place. That=E2=80=99s not even for patriotism alone. > > Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed as > > you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other > > European countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion > > propaganda. There are some nazi groups, of course, but they are not > > prominent at all. >=20 > And I am the one spreading propaganda? LOL =F0=9F=A4=93 Even thinking it=E2=80=99s slightly bigger, it=E2=80=99s not on a different= scale. far right has progressed=20 everywhere in europe including russia. the problem is also worse in poland= and russia=20 than, say czechia, and yet czechs are more afraid now. > > Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Those > > cities are right to the Russian border, like less than 100 > > kms. Those are cities, where the majority speaks > > Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops have very hard times to > > conquere *any* of those cities. They thought they would be welcomed > > here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed with molotov > > coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this nazi > > bullshit. >=20 > Maybe that is the problem that nobody took shit of this nazi bullshit > in time. Or simply this doesn=E2=80=99t have anything to do with it anymore and you = are stretching your=20 conclusions past the point your reasons were enough to justify them respect= ing occam=E2=80=99s=20 razor. > I see my friend, you are biased. Or the other way around. I really wonder how is it possible that the only ever people I saw supporti= ng russia that way=20 are indians=E2=80=A6 yet india stated to be just as neutral as many other c= ountries I=E2=80=99m not=20 hearing=E2=80=A6 what are TV and local medias in your place saying about th= is? I=E2=80=99m curious > Do you want to say that Amnesty International did not well research > before they published this: >=20 > Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian > volunteer forces - Amnesty International > https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoin > g-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/ That was long ago, and ukrainian invasion is now, not eight years ago. > Do you want to say that human rights abuses in Ukraine are none? That > it is nothing, never happened? There are regularely human rights abuses in france and that=E2=80=99d be no= reason to send foreign=20 armies there, as starting war usually INCREASE human right abuse. Btw there are even more human right abuses in Russia. --nextPart5993691.SQyoMl2o7t Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 13-a horo kaj 31:21 CET Jean Louis a = =C3=A9crit :

>= ; * Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:01]:

>= ; > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

>= ; > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more compli= cated

>= ; > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse P= utin

>= ; > > to

>= ; > > be the cause. But it is not cause.

>= ; >

>= ; > I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is = a

>= ; > complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks

>= ; > Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are comi= ng into our

>= ; > land.

>= ;

>= ; That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda?


Yes.  When something is obvious, and you bring misplaced skepticism= without any contradiction of the facts in front of you, nor sufficient jus= tification for your position. it is.


> That "political situation is more complicated than person stat= ed" --

>= ; that is propaganda?


Yes.  If I come to a Shoah memorial and started saying, without any= justification nor explanation =C2=AByou know, the situation for nazis is m= ore complicated than you stated=C2=BB it will be just neonazi propaganda.

> That we shall accuse Putin solely for conflict -- is propaganda?


You said the opposite, that we =C2=ABshall not=C2=BB.


> You my friend you twist words. That is my opinion, not propaganda. = I

>= ; have no resources to make any propaganda, neither I am hired by

>= ; Ukrainian nor Russians, neither related directly or indirectly, apart

>= ; from my grandgrandfather who was Ukrainian.


Propaganda does not have to be paid or hired.  Propaganda is from l= atin and initially refered to the popagation of christian ideas.  Then= it was by the East bloc.  Neither of these propagandas ever were capi= talist, based on money or hiring.


> And of course nobody likes war. I have used "save" or &qu= ot;help" under

>= ; quotes to indicate a meaning, meaning that I am quoting it and not

>= ; necessarily condining it. I have stated multiple times for people not

>= ; to misunderstand me that I am against any wars.


That=E2=80=99s why it doesn=E2=80=99t mean anything to just state that.&= nbsp; Saying you don=E2=80=99t like, condone it, or you are against it, is = of no value in front of saying otherwise than the worldwide majority opposi= ng it with no proof, bringing unjustified skepticism.  You need proofs= or rational criticism of the facts that weren=E2=80=99t enough to convince= you to explain the suspension of your judgement.


> Communication is the key.

>= ;

>= ; People lack communication skills and negotiation skills.

>= ;

>= ; Little friendship and love can solve it all.

>= ;

>= ; > It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are<= /p>

>= ; > on our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our

>= ; > freedom. This is as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had

>= ; > never been before the war started.

>= ;

>= ; Then you must be very young person.

>= ;

>= ; Thinking in simplicities is what said propaganda wants you to do. Take

>= ; young boys and die for country.

>= ;

>= ; Shit.

>= ;

>= ; I recommend you and your family to depart, situation will be better,

>= ; Russia will not take Ukraine, but don't participate in bloody war for

>= ; patriotic reasons. Defend your family by putting them in safe place.


That=E2=80=99s not even for patriotism alone.


> > Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed= as

>= ; > you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other

>= ; > European countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion

>= ; > propaganda. There are some nazi groups, of course, but they are not<= /p>

>= ; > prominent at all.

>= ;

>= ; And I am the one spreading propaganda? LOL =F0=9F=A4=93


Even thinking it=E2=80=99s slightly bigger, it=E2=80=99s not on a differ= ent scale.  far right has progressed everywhere in europe including ru= ssia.  the problem is also worse in poland and russia than, say czechi= a, and yet czechs are more afraid now.


> > Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Thos= e

>= ; > cities are right to the Russian border, like less than 100

>= ; > kms. Those are cities, where the majority speaks

>= ; > Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops have very hard times to

>= ; > conquere *any* of those cities. They thought they would be welcomed<= /p>

>= ; > here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed with molotov

>= ; > coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this nazi

>= ; > bullshit.

>= ;

>= ; Maybe that is the problem that nobody took shit of this nazi bullshit

>= ; in time.


Or simply this doesn=E2=80=99t have anything to do with it anymore and y= ou are stretching your conclusions past the point your reasons were enough = to justify them respecting occam=E2=80=99s razor.


> I see my friend, you are biased.


Or the other way around.


I really wonder how is it possible that the only ever people I saw suppo= rting russia that way are indians=E2=80=A6 yet india stated to be just as n= eutral as many other countries I=E2=80=99m not hearing=E2=80=A6 what are TV= and local medias in your place saying about this? I=E2=80=99m curious


> Do you want to say that Amnesty International did not well research=

>= ; before they published this:

>= ;

>= ; Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian

>= ; volunteer forces - Amnesty International

>= ; https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoin

>= ; g-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/


That was long ago, and ukrainian invasion is now, not eight years ago.

> Do you want to say that human rights abuses in Ukraine are none? Th= at

>= ; it is nothing, never happened?


There are regularely human rights abuses in france and that=E2=80=99d be= no reason to send foreign armies there, as starting war usually INCREASE h= uman right abuse.


Btw there are even more human right abuses in Russia.


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