Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu>]

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Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 13-a horo kaj 31:21 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@gmail.com> [2022-02-28 15:01]:
> > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
> > > to
> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> > 
> > I am a Ukrainian, speaking Russian, living in Kyiv. What you say is a
> > complete propaganda. You know, 60% of population in Kyiv speaks
> > Russian. And yet, we hate those "leberators" that are coming into our
> > land.
> 
> That I said "I don't think so" is propaganda?

Yes.  When something is obvious, and you bring misplaced skepticism without any 
contradiction of the facts in front of you, nor sufficient justification for your position. it is.

> That "political situation is more complicated than person stated" --
> that is propaganda?

Yes.  If I come to a Shoah memorial and started saying, without any justification nor 
explanation «you know, the situation for nazis is more complicated than you stated» it will 
be just neonazi propaganda.

> That we shall accuse Putin solely for conflict -- is propaganda?

You said the opposite, that we «shall not».

> You my friend you twist words. That is my opinion, not propaganda. I
> have no resources to make any propaganda, neither I am hired by
> Ukrainian nor Russians, neither related directly or indirectly, apart
> from my grandgrandfather who was Ukrainian.

Propaganda does not have to be paid or hired.  Propaganda is from latin and initially 
refered to the popagation of christian ideas.  Then it was by the East bloc.  Neither of these 
propagandas ever were capitalist, based on money or hiring.

> And of course nobody likes war. I have used "save" or "help" under
> quotes to indicate a meaning, meaning that I am quoting it and not
> necessarily condining it. I have stated multiple times for people not
> to misunderstand me that I am against any wars.

That’s why it doesn’t mean anything to just state that.  Saying you don’t like, condone it, or 
you are against it, is of no value in front of saying otherwise than the worldwide majority 
opposing it with no proof, bringing unjustified skepticism.  You need proofs or rational 
criticism of the facts that weren’t enough to convince you to explain the suspension of your 
judgement.

> Communication is the key.
> 
> People lack communication skills and negotiation skills.
> 
> Little friendship and love can solve it all.
> 
> > It's much less complicated than you are trying to pose here. We are
> > on our land and we will defend it, we are fighting for our
> > freedom. This is as simple as that. Ukraine is as united as it had
> > never been before the war started.
> 
> Then you must be very young person.
> 
> Thinking in simplicities is what said propaganda wants you to do. Take
> young boys and die for country.
> 
> Shit.
> 
> I recommend you and your family to depart, situation will be better,
> Russia will not take Ukraine, but don't participate in bloody war for
> patriotic reasons. Defend your family by putting them in safe place.

That’s not even for patriotism alone.

> > Leave your tales about nazis to someone, who is as brainwashed as
> > you. The problem of nazis in Ukraine is no bigger than in other
> > European countries. It is heavily exaggerated by Russion
> > propaganda. There are some nazi groups, of course, but they are not
> > prominent at all.
> 
> And I am the one spreading propaganda? LOL 🤓

Even thinking it’s slightly bigger, it’s not on a different scale.  far right has progressed 
everywhere in europe including russia.  the problem is also worse in poland and russia 
than, say czechia, and yet czechs are more afraid now.

> > Just look at Sumy, Chernihiv, Kharkiv, Mariupol, Kherson. Those
> > cities are right to the Russian border, like less than 100
> > kms. Those are cities, where the majority speaks
> > Russian. Nonetheless, Russian troops have very hard times to
> > conquere *any* of those cities. They thought they would be welcomed
> > here with flowers, but instead they are welcomed with molotov
> > coctails and guerilla warfare. Nobody takes a shit of this nazi
> > bullshit.
> 
> Maybe that is the problem that nobody took shit of this nazi bullshit
> in time.

Or simply this doesn’t have anything to do with it anymore and you are stretching your 
conclusions past the point your reasons were enough to justify them respecting occam’s 
razor.

> I see my friend, you are biased.

Or the other way around.

I really wonder how is it possible that the only ever people I saw supporting russia that way 
are indians… yet india stated to be just as neutral as many other countries I’m not 
hearing… what are TV and local medias in your place saying about this? I’m curious

> Do you want to say that Amnesty International did not well research
> before they published this:
> 
> Ukraine must stop ongoing abuses and war crimes by pro-Ukrainian
> volunteer forces - Amnesty International
> https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/09/ukraine-must-stop-ongoin
> g-abuses-and-war-crimes-pro-ukrainian-volunteer-forces/

That was long ago, and ukrainian invasion is now, not eight years ago.

> Do you want to say that human rights abuses in Ukraine are none? That
> it is nothing, never happened?

There are regularely human rights abuses in france and that’d be no reason to send foreign 
armies there, as starting war usually INCREASE human right abuse.

Btw there are even more human right abuses in Russia.


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