From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alexandre Garreau Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.tangents Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 15:34:07 +0100 Message-ID: <6770555.EtqQAmMTSm@galex-713.eu> References: <87ee3p4xn4.fsf@zoho.eu> <8763867.BOMLdT1YOJ@galex-713.eu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="nextPart6329590.ZZ0QKbeLbH" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35129"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Jacob Hrbek , emacs-tangents@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 01 15:41:01 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nP3gR-0008wD-S1 for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 15:41:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60696 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP3gQ-0006hU-TN for get-emacs-tangents@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 09:40:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44098) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP3a7-0006Ee-DQ for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 09:34:27 -0500 Original-Received: from [2a00:5884:8305::1] (port=47758 helo=galex-713.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP3a3-0002PE-5C for emacs-tangents@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 09:34:27 -0500 Original-Received: from gal by galex-713.eu with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1nP3Zo-00F48L-FE; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 15:34:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:5884:8305::1 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:5884:8305::1; envelope-from=galex-713@galex-713.eu; helo=galex-713.eu X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:812 Archived-At: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --nextPart6329590.ZZ0QKbeLbH Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 8-a horo kaj 27:39 CET Jean Louis a =C3=A9crit= : > * Alexandre Garreau [2022-02-28 17:42]: > > Le diman=C4=89o, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Lo= uis a =C3=A9crit : > > > * Alexandre Garreau [2022-02-27 14:52]: > > > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe > > > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or > > > > threatened. > > >=20 > > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated > > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin > > > to > > > be the cause. But it is not cause. > >=20 > > I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like > > some high officials, generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on > > the other hand, i have the hidden hope many russian militaries, both > > low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in order to > > save lifes). But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not > > (he perfectly looks like the type), I don=E2=80=99t judge, and limit to > > =C2=ABPutin and the absence of democracy=C2=BB. > I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to > your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should > rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the > Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women > could not vote). >=20 > The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and > that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject > of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including > the war. Until there, ofc we agree. > If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy", > that would include the protection of citizen by those who make > harm. I don=E2=80=99t see how or on what ground that would. > The absence of democracy is thus not related only to > Russia, but it is related to Ukraine, Ukraine is not less democratic than Russia. It kinda is more because it is= more liberal and=20 it is more permitted and common to criticize leaders and do shit there. Co= ntrarily to russia=20 where criticizing putin is harshely punished. And this is confirmed by all = ppl i know in both=20 russia and ukraine.=20 > and especially to > foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation nobody has such interest, not even russia. putin just got mad. > I have > given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was > financing the Azov Battalion, so what? i have already told you that is not sufficient reason. > and we can see today which > countries are sending military weapons and which countries > supported the escalation from beginning. but putin started to attack, so it did escalate more visibly than any other= =2E if it was because=20 of others, it would have been in their public interest to wait for the othe= r to escalate more=20 visibly and to do something visibly, obviously and publicly wrong befor eto= react. > Yes, situation is much more complex than we think. Don=E2=80=99t say =C2=AByes=C2=BB when you are the only one thinking like y= ou do, it=E2=80=99s only contempting. > Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue > you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each > other. and I think they would, because putin is just mad at the fact he=E2=80=99s = gonna die powerless and=20 right under his nose there is a land full of people even selling toilet pap= er with his face on it=20 (and you know what? many russians would even pay more to be allowed to get = that xD) > As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand > relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them > and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas > war. and yet putin started it > If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and > order. You=E2=80=99re wrong. You should first think about freedom, diversity, and= conflict. > And that means respecting human rights and handling > crimes in the country. the opposite of what putin ever did. > That is what Germany, Austria, Norway, > France, Spain, do in their countries. no they don=E2=80=99t. all too often they=E2=80=99re happy of human right = abuses by the far right, that has=20 now reached the entire political spectrum that=E2=80=99s represented in exe= cutive power. not even talking of official, europeanfunded human right abuses, such as fr= ontex, and the=20 mediterannean genocide taking place right now > They do respect human > rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice > system is there that helps to stabilize it. executive system here doesn=E2=80=99t care about justice system anymore, an= d lawyers are mad at=20 it but are helpless > That is why we can > see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the > resistance and protection by government and by common people > who cannot be sold on those stories. not sufficient > Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they > are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings. they don=E2=80=99t, and other germanic countries had mass killing. current= ly we get regularely=20 threatening of mass killing from our own neonazis and regularely learn that= massive stocks=20 of weapons and munitions are seized from=E2=80=A6 a minority of them. but = most of them=20 accumulating such things have no issues and keep participating in politics = and fostering=20 and promoting human right abuses. > And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well, > there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human > rights abuses. =20 so why are all ukrainian leftists I know more afraid from putin than from t= heir govt or azov? i can say that putin did his job of oppression a lot better than anything a= zov would be even=20 capable of --nextPart6329590.ZZ0QKbeLbH Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 8-a horo kaj 27:39 CET Jean Louis a =C3=A9c= rit :

>= ; * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-28 17:42]:

>= ; > Le diman=C4=89o, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean= Louis a =C3=A9crit :

>= ; > > * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 = 14:52]:

>= ; > > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and m= aybe

>= ; > > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied t= o or

>= ; > > > threatened.

>= ; > >

>= ; > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more compli= cated

>= ; > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse P= utin

>= ; > > to

>= ; > > be the cause. But it is not cause.

>= ; >

>= ; > I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like<= /p>

>= ; > some high officials, generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on<= /p>

>= ; > the other hand, i have the hidden hope many russian militaries, both=

>= ; > low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in order to=

>= ; > save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin o= r not

>= ; > (he perfectly looks like the type), I don=E2=80=99t judge, and limit= to

>= ; > =C2=ABPutin and the absence of democracy=C2=BB.

>= ; I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to

>= ; your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should

>= ; rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the

>= ; Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women<= /p>

>= ; could not vote).

>= ;

>= ; The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and

>= ; that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject

>= ; of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including

>= ; the war.


Until there, ofc we agree.


> If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy&quo= t;,

>= ; that would include the protection of citizen by those who make

>= ; harm.


I don=E2=80=99t see how or on what ground that would.


> The absence of democracy is thus not related only to

>= ; Russia, but it is related to Ukraine,


Ukraine is not less democratic than Russia.  It kinda is more becau= se it is more liberal and it is more permitted and common to criticize lead= ers and do shit there.  Contrarily to russia where criticizing putin i= s harshely punished. And this is confirmed by all ppl i know in both russia= and ukraine.


> and especially to

>= ; foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation


nobody has such interest, not even russia. putin just got mad.


> I have

>= ; given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was

>= ; financing the Azov Battalion,


so what? i have already told you that is not sufficient reason.


> and we can see today which

>= ; countries are sending military weapons and which countries

>= ; supported the escalation from beginning.


but putin started to attack, so it did escalate more visibly than any ot= her.  if it was because of others, it would have been in their public = interest to wait for the other to escalate more visibly and to do something= visibly, obviously and publicly wrong befor eto react.


> Yes, situation is much more complex than we think.


Don=E2=80=99t say =C2=AByes=C2=BB when you are the only one thinking lik= e you do, it=E2=80=99s only contempting.


> Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue

>= ; you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each

>= ; other.


and I=C2=A0think they would, because putin is just mad at the fact he=E2= =80=99s gonna die powerless and right under his nose there is a land full o= f people even selling toilet paper with his face on it (and you know what? = many russians would even pay more to be allowed to get that xD)


> As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand

>= ; relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them

>= ; and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas

>= ; war.


and yet putin started it


> If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and=

>= ; order.


You=E2=80=99re wrong.  You should first think about freedom, divers= ity, and conflict.


> And that means respecting human rights and handling

>= ; crimes in the country.


the opposite of what putin ever did.


> That is what Germany, Austria, Norway,

>= ; France, Spain, do in their countries.


no they don=E2=80=99t.  all too often they=E2=80=99re happy of huma= n right abuses by the far right, that has now reached the entire political = spectrum that=E2=80=99s represented in executive power.


not even talking of official, europeanfunded human right abuses, such as= frontex, and the mediterannean genocide taking place right now


> They do respect human

>= ; rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice

>= ; system is there that helps to stabilize it.


executive system here doesn=E2=80=99t care about justice system anymore,= and lawyers are mad at it but are helpless


> That is why we can

>= ; see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the

>= ; resistance and protection by government and by common people

>= ; who cannot be sold on those stories.


not sufficient


> Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they

>= ; are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings.


they don=E2=80=99t, and other germanic countries had mass killing. = currently we get regularely threatening of mass killing from our own neona= zis and regularely learn that massive stocks of weapons and munitions are s= eized from=E2=80=A6 a minority of them.  but most of them accumulating= such things have no issues and keep participating in politics and fosterin= g and promoting human right abuses.


> And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well,

>= ; there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human

>= ; rights abuses.

&nb= sp;

so = why are all ukrainian leftists I know more afraid from putin than from thei= r govt or azov?


i can say that putin did his job of oppression a lot better than anythin= g azov would be even capable of


> Compare it, it is comparable. We speak of absence of

>= ; democracy. I don't know if true democracy is really there in

>= ; Germany, but Germany does handle their Nazis and does not

>= ; allow that what Ukrainian government did allow to themselves.


Even if that was so, it wouldn=E2=80=99t be a reason to bomb civilians, = restrain internet in russia, or oppress so many eastern slavs.


> Logical consequence is that some party like Russia will stand

>= ; on the side of victims, so they did in past several times.


they do the opposite, they are oppressors, just as usa, china, or any su= perpower


> And I am sure there were ways for Russia to stand on side of

>= ; human rights without war. There are always ways.


that=E2=80=99s true, but putin does the opposite, because it=E2=80=99s n= ot in his habits, he prefers to do the opposite.


> The major undisputable fact is that human rights abuses went

>= ; unhandled in Ukraine, despite all kinds of warnings and

>= ; reports. It is also fact that neither US nor EU did anything

>= ; to prevent atrocities committed there against its own

>= ; citizens, all based on ethnicity.


you keep stating no fucking sufficient reason to bomb civilian cities


> Fact is that atrocities were not public enough. Would there be

>= ; no Wikipedia page on it, it would be very difficult to provide

>= ; references to uninformed people.


most likely because you are naively thinking to conspiracy theories made= by putin.


> Thus the world does not know.

>= ;

>= ; Like what my Swedish friend said, war is wrong and let us now

>= ; cut off Russia. But that viewpoint is uninformed. Problem is

>= ; not just in Russian politics or in Putin. Problem is that tens

>= ; of thousands of people died because of lack of law and order

>= ; in Ukraine,


given modern concentration of population density nowadays, it would be h= ighly unlikely for this to happen and yet no ukrainian to know or care abou= t it, and i can tell you it=E2=80=99s that way. i was there last year. = ; when was your last time in kyiv ukraine?


> and lack of democratical (modern civilized)

>= ; measures to prevent human rights abuses and killings. By

>= ; cutting off Russia, we do not help Ukrainian citizens who

>= ; suffered and continue to suffer in the country without law and

>= ; order.


I used to think that but in the end it looks like the russian bourgeoisi= e is the most harmed, for now, which is good and may be useful.


however it is sheer hypocrisy that otan and europe are not helping ukrai= nians with actual people, medics, etc. they=E2=80=99re too scared to stand = for freedom


> And that is why the wish for independency of those 2 parts in

>= ; Ukraine.


nobody cares anymore about them as most of the fights are not in them.&n= bsp; that alone should be sufficient to be against putin.


bombing cities.  Opacity.  These are extremely difficult to ju= stify.


> Problem is not in Russia, problem is in all of us NOT BEING

>= ; ALERTED ENOUGH that people are killed all over the world. We

>= ; have Internet but we did not organize global emergency system

>= ; to do something when killings start.


even with =C2=ABemergency system=C2=BB (everybody knew that killing star= ted from early at night): what are you gonna do?


you say we ignore stuff, but you have no fact or even mere hypothesis to= justify what putin did.


> We speak of Ukraine because it is in the news. Innocent people

>= ; are dying in Africa due to invasion and occupations all the

>= ; time,


that=E2=80=99s right, and the disproportion is unjust indeed.  this= likely have colonial, imperialist, maybe even racist, reasons.  anywa= y the issue is that putin became irrationnal and scary and that is worryins= the whole world about a WW3.  then a such increased care wouldn=E2=80= =99t be unjustified.


> but because we are not straight informed through media,

>= ; we don't do nothing about it.


I really, really wonder what are the india news spreading to make ppl su= pport putin.  please tell me.  tell me the =C2=ABcore idea=C2=BB = that makes you think such opacity and bombing of cities is justified. = stop telling about what we wouldn=E2=80=99t know but what you think you kn= ow and what would, if proven false, change your mind.


for me, if all the videos implying bombing had been fake (made up, too o= ld, or from unrelated places), or most of ukrainians trained to say to stra= ngers not to tell they=E2=80=99re rightwing and lie about it so that most o= f the population was participating in a genocide since years, or that nobod= y had been killed in ukraine, AND that putin didn=E2=80=99t at any moment u= sed those two regions or nato as an excuse, i would change my mind, but it = looks unlikely.


> There is no discussion on this

>= ; mailing list on how many innocent civilians died in Congo in

>= ; last few months. This is because West has interest in Ukraine,

>= ; they don't have interest in remote areas of the world.


I find that pretty much the opposite: Congo provides many materials that= are essential to the industrialization lead by the West.  Most of mos= t suffering african countries from foreign military intervention are becaus= e they are strategic to us.  Most of western europe alimentarily survi= ves only because france extracts uranium and phosphore from sahara, otherwi= se we=E2=80=99d die from starvation given how our industrial unsustainable = agriculture requires to sterilize all land, and poison sea, every year=E2= =80=A6


While I don=E2=80=99t see what kind of so high interest we would have in= ukraine.


I really wonder how indians can get that irrationnal in this situation= =E2=80=A6 you claim to speak for russia but don=E2=80=99t even listen to ru= ssians themselves=E2=80=A6

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