Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 8-a horo kaj 27:39 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-28 17:42]:
> > Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > > * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > > > threatened.
> > >
> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
> > > to
> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> >
> > I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like
> > some high officials, generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on
> > the other hand, i have the hidden hope many russian militaries, both
> > low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in order to
> > save lifes). But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not
> > (he perfectly looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to
> > «Putin and the absence of democracy».
> I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to
> your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should
> rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the
> Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women
> could not vote).
>
> The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and
> that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject
> of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including
> the war.
Until there, ofc we agree.
> If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy",
> that would include the protection of citizen by those who make
> harm.
I don’t see how or on what ground that would.
> The absence of democracy is thus not related only to
> Russia, but it is related to Ukraine,
Ukraine is not less democratic than Russia. It kinda is more because it is more liberal and it is more permitted and common to criticize leaders and do shit there. Contrarily to russia where criticizing putin is harshely punished. And this is confirmed by all ppl i know in both russia and ukraine.
> and especially to
> foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation
nobody has such interest, not even russia. putin just got mad.
> I have
> given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was
> financing the Azov Battalion,
so what? i have already told you that is not sufficient reason.
> and we can see today which
> countries are sending military weapons and which countries
> supported the escalation from beginning.
but putin started to attack, so it did escalate more visibly than any other. if it was because of others, it would have been in their public interest to wait for the other to escalate more visibly and to do something visibly, obviously and publicly wrong befor eto react.
> Yes, situation is much more complex than we think.
Don’t say «yes» when you are the only one thinking like you do, it’s only contempting.
> Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue
> you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each
> other.
and I think they would, because putin is just mad at the fact he’s gonna die powerless and right under his nose there is a land full of people even selling toilet paper with his face on it (and you know what? many russians would even pay more to be allowed to get that xD)
> As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand
> relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them
> and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas
> war.
and yet putin started it
> If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and
> order.
You’re wrong. You should first think about freedom, diversity, and conflict.
> And that means respecting human rights and handling
> crimes in the country.
the opposite of what putin ever did.
> That is what Germany, Austria, Norway,
> France, Spain, do in their countries.
no they don’t. all too often they’re happy of human right abuses by the far right, that has now reached the entire political spectrum that’s represented in executive power.
not even talking of official, europeanfunded human right abuses, such as frontex, and the mediterannean genocide taking place right now
> They do respect human
> rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice
> system is there that helps to stabilize it.
executive system here doesn’t care about justice system anymore, and lawyers are mad at it but are helpless
> That is why we can
> see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the
> resistance and protection by government and by common people
> who cannot be sold on those stories.
not sufficient
> Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they
> are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings.
they don’t, and other germanic countries had mass killing. currently we get regularely threatening of mass killing from our own neonazis and regularely learn that massive stocks of weapons and munitions are seized from… a minority of them. but most of them accumulating such things have no issues and keep participating in politics and fostering and promoting human right abuses.
> And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well,
> there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human
> rights abuses.
so why are all ukrainian leftists I know more afraid from putin than from their govt or azov?
i can say that putin did his job of oppression a lot better than anything azov would be even capable of
> Compare it, it is comparable. We speak of absence of
> democracy. I don't know if true democracy is really there in
> Germany, but Germany does handle their Nazis and does not
> allow that what Ukrainian government did allow to themselves.
Even if that was so, it wouldn’t be a reason to bomb civilians, restrain internet in russia, or oppress so many eastern slavs.
> Logical consequence is that some party like Russia will stand
> on the side of victims, so they did in past several times.
they do the opposite, they are oppressors, just as usa, china, or any superpower
> And I am sure there were ways for Russia to stand on side of
> human rights without war. There are always ways.
that’s true, but putin does the opposite, because it’s not in his habits, he prefers to do the opposite.
> The major undisputable fact is that human rights abuses went
> unhandled in Ukraine, despite all kinds of warnings and
> reports. It is also fact that neither US nor EU did anything
> to prevent atrocities committed there against its own
> citizens, all based on ethnicity.
you keep stating no fucking sufficient reason to bomb civilian cities
> Fact is that atrocities were not public enough. Would there be
> no Wikipedia page on it, it would be very difficult to provide
> references to uninformed people.
most likely because you are naively thinking to conspiracy theories made by putin.
> Thus the world does not know.
>
> Like what my Swedish friend said, war is wrong and let us now
> cut off Russia. But that viewpoint is uninformed. Problem is
> not just in Russian politics or in Putin. Problem is that tens
> of thousands of people died because of lack of law and order
> in Ukraine,
given modern concentration of population density nowadays, it would be highly unlikely for this to happen and yet no ukrainian to know or care about it, and i can tell you it’s that way. i was there last year. when was your last time in kyiv ukraine?
> and lack of democratical (modern civilized)
> measures to prevent human rights abuses and killings. By
> cutting off Russia, we do not help Ukrainian citizens who
> suffered and continue to suffer in the country without law and
> order.
I used to think that but in the end it looks like the russian bourgeoisie is the most harmed, for now, which is good and may be useful.
however it is sheer hypocrisy that otan and europe are not helping ukrainians with actual people, medics, etc. they’re too scared to stand for freedom
> And that is why the wish for independency of those 2 parts in
> Ukraine.
nobody cares anymore about them as most of the fights are not in them. that alone should be sufficient to be against putin.
bombing cities. Opacity. These are extremely difficult to justify.
> Problem is not in Russia, problem is in all of us NOT BEING
> ALERTED ENOUGH that people are killed all over the world. We
> have Internet but we did not organize global emergency system
> to do something when killings start.
even with «emergency system» (everybody knew that killing started from early at night): what are you gonna do?
you say we ignore stuff, but you have no fact or even mere hypothesis to justify what putin did.
> We speak of Ukraine because it is in the news. Innocent people
> are dying in Africa due to invasion and occupations all the
> time,
that’s right, and the disproportion is unjust indeed. this likely have colonial, imperialist, maybe even racist, reasons. anyway the issue is that putin became irrationnal and scary and that is worryins the whole world about a WW3. then a such increased care wouldn’t be unjustified.
> but because we are not straight informed through media,
> we don't do nothing about it.
I really, really wonder what are the india news spreading to make ppl support putin. please tell me. tell me the «core idea» that makes you think such opacity and bombing of cities is justified. stop telling about what we wouldn’t know but what you think you know and what would, if proven false, change your mind.
for me, if all the videos implying bombing had been fake (made up, too old, or from unrelated places), or most of ukrainians trained to say to strangers not to tell they’re rightwing and lie about it so that most of the population was participating in a genocide since years, or that nobody had been killed in ukraine, AND that putin didn’t at any moment used those two regions or nato as an excuse, i would change my mind, but it looks unlikely.
> There is no discussion on this
> mailing list on how many innocent civilians died in Congo in
> last few months. This is because West has interest in Ukraine,
> they don't have interest in remote areas of the world.
I find that pretty much the opposite: Congo provides many materials that are essential to the industrialization lead by the West. Most of most suffering african countries from foreign military intervention are because they are strategic to us. Most of western europe alimentarily survives only because france extracts uranium and phosphore from sahara, otherwise we’d die from starvation given how our industrial unsustainable agriculture requires to sterilize all land, and poison sea, every year…
While I don’t see what kind of so high interest we would have in ukraine.
I really wonder how indians can get that irrationnal in this situation… you claim to speak for russia but don’t even listen to russians themselves…