Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu>]

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Le mardo, 1-a de marto 2022, 8-a horo kaj 27:39 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-28 17:42]:
> > Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 51:08 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> > > * Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> [2022-02-27 14:52]:
> > > > And I believe (if that can help) in the end the main and maybe
> > > > almost only responsible is Putin, everyone else was lied to or
> > > > threatened.
> > > 
> > > I don't think so. Political situation in Ukraine is more complicated
> > > then what you state. It would be good if we could just accuse Putin
> > > to
> > > be the cause. But it is not cause.
> > 
> > I can imagine the sole willingful responsible is not putin, so like
> > some high officials, generals, etc. must be responsible as well (on
> > the other hand, i have the hidden hope many russian militaries, both
> > low and high in hierarchy, purposedly act less competent in order to
> > save lifes).  But as I cannot know who is threatened by Putin or not
> > (he perfectly looks like the type), I don’t judge, and limit to
> > «Putin and the absence of democracy».
> I do not know what you mean under "democracy". I do agree to
> your statements. Democracy, in the meaning that people should
> rule, isn't there in this world, neither was there in the
> Ancient Greece (not everybody was "citizen" to vote; and women
> could not vote).
> 
> The fact is that we people, have insanity in this world and
> that is the cause of killing each other. Handling the subject
> of insanity and its causes would solve the problems including
> the war.

Until there, ofc we agree.

> If we now speak in the more open minded term of "democracy",
> that would include the protection of citizen by those who make
> harm.

I don’t see how or on what ground that would.

> The absence of democracy is thus not related only to
> Russia, but it is related to Ukraine,

Ukraine is not less democratic than Russia.  It kinda is more because it is more liberal and 
it is more permitted and common to criticize leaders and do shit there.  Contrarily to russia 
where criticizing putin is harshely punished. And this is confirmed by all ppl i know in both 
russia and ukraine. 

> and especially to
> foreign powers which have interest to escalate the situation

nobody has such interest, not even russia. putin just got mad.

> I have
> given enough hyperlink references showing that US congress was
> financing the Azov Battalion,

so what? i have already told you that is not sufficient reason.

> and we can see today which
> countries are sending military weapons and which countries
> supported the escalation from beginning.

but putin started to attack, so it did escalate more visibly than any other.  if it was because 
of others, it would have been in their public interest to wait for the other to escalate more 
visibly and to do something visibly, obviously and publicly wrong befor eto react.

> Yes, situation is much more complex than we think.

Don’t say «yes» when you are the only one thinking like you do, it’s only contempting.

> Without third parties having interest in the conflict I assue
> you that Ukrainian and Russians would not fight against each
> other.

and I think they would, because putin is just mad at the fact he’s gonna die powerless and 
right under his nose there is a land full of people even selling toilet paper with his face on it 
(and you know what? many russians would even pay more to be allowed to get that xD)

> As every human life is relevant, so it the issue at hand
> relevant. How many people died so far? I guess 20,000 of them
> and more. Just look at the official information of the Donbas
> war.

and yet putin started it

> If I think of "democracy" then I like thinking of law and
> order.

You’re wrong.  You should first think about freedom, diversity, and conflict.

> And that means respecting human rights and handling
> crimes in the country.

the opposite of what putin ever did.

> That is what Germany, Austria, Norway,
> France, Spain, do in their countries.

no they don’t.  all too often they’re happy of human right abuses by the far right, that has 
now reached the entire political spectrum that’s represented in executive power.

not even talking of official, europeanfunded human right abuses, such as frontex, and the 
mediterannean genocide taking place right now

> They do respect human
> rights, even if there are human rights abuses, the justice
> system is there that helps to stabilize it.

executive system here doesn’t care about justice system anymore, and lawyers are mad at 
it but are helpless

> That is why we can
> see Nazis in Germany, but we also see so much of the
> resistance and protection by government and by common people
> who cannot be sold on those stories.

not sufficient

> Because government in Germany does their job pretty well, they
> are handling those Nazis, so there are no mass killings.

they don’t, and other germanic countries had mass killing.  currently we get regularely 
threatening of mass killing from our own neonazis and regularely learn that massive stocks 
of weapons and munitions are seized from… a minority of them.  but most of them 
accumulating such things have no issues and keep participating in politics and fostering 
and promoting human right abuses.

> And because Ukrainian government did not do their job well,
> there are mass killings by Azov Battalion and numerous human
> rights abuses.
 
so why are all ukrainian leftists I know more afraid from putin than from their govt or azov?

i can say that putin did his job of oppression a lot better than anything azov would be even 
capable of

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