* Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) [not found] ` <831tbwlext.fsf@gnu.org> @ 2015-11-11 20:39 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 20:50 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:10 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii, Stephen Leake; +Cc: emacs-tangents, john On 11/11/2015 05:43 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>> These considerations will become valid only when we have enough >>> developers paying attention to bugs that are reported. (That includes >>> you, Stephen, btw.) > > (Upon re-reading, I apologize for being so blunt. It just feels too > lonely there, at times.) I think a significant part of that problem is self-imposed. Personally, I try to pay attention to bugs that are related to code that I at least have touched at some point, or bugs that affect me directly, but it seems there aren't too many of those. And I don't think it's reasonable to expect much more of any contributor. Over time, we've put a lot of conditions on Emacs development. There's a lot of code in the core, some of which is used by only marginal fractions of our users and has no one personally responsible for it. Yet we feel obliged to keep it in Emacs, because backward compatibility and careful deprecation policy. Even though we're lacking in developers. Our bug tracker is peculiar, and on its own turns many less experienced users away. Users that could participate in triaging bugs, at least, if not writing patches. Maybe trying out submitted patches, too. Yet over several discussions that happened in the past, it was decided to keep it, because the ability to interact with the bug tracker via email (and some other advantages, though I'm not sure which ones) has been deemed more valuable than a functional HTML-based interface that allows one to manage bugs in the browser, leave comments, etc, which is expected by most users these days. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, 2015-11-11 20:39 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 20:50 ` John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:03 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 21:14 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:10 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: John Wiegley @ 2015-11-11 20:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Stephen Leake, emacs-tangents, Richard Stallman, john >>>>> Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes: > Personally, I try to pay attention to bugs that are related to code that I > at least have touched at some point, or bugs that affect me directly, but it > seems there aren't too many of those. And I don't think it's reasonable to > expect much more of any contributor. I, at least, don't expect anything more than that from contributors. > Over time, we've put a lot of conditions on Emacs development. There's a lot > of code in the core, some of which is used by only marginal fractions of our > users and has no one personally responsible for it. Yet we feel obliged to > keep it in Emacs, because backward compatibility and careful deprecation > policy. Even though we're lacking in developers. The upcoming clarifications on ELPA policy may well lead to reducing the surface area of primary Emacs development. This will serve to focus the bug load of what is "core", although we'll still be maintaining some of the ELPA packages that don't have their own dedicated maintainers. > Our bug tracker is peculiar, and on its own turns many less experienced > users away. Users that could participate in triaging bugs, at least, if not > writing patches. Maybe trying out submitted patches, too. I very muchq agree with this. I have used many, _many_ bug trackers in the past, but I'm finding that debbugs is inhibiting my ability to interact conveniently with our bug database. It's hard to search for what I'm looking for, it's hard to navigate the bug tracker from within Emacs (is it just me, or is debbugs.el kind of terrible?), and unless I'm missing something, I can't edit a bug after I've found it through the web interface: I have to go to my mail reader in order to make changes to the bug via e-mail. It could also be that I just haven't discovered all of the tricks that Eli might know. Is there any documentation I should be reading beyond what's on the GNU bug tracker page? John ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, 2015-11-11 20:50 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley @ 2015-11-11 21:03 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 21:06 ` John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:14 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 21:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii, Stephen Leake, emacs-tangents, john, Richard Stallman On 11/11/2015 10:50 PM, John Wiegley wrote: > The upcoming clarifications on ELPA policy may well lead to reducing the > surface area of primary Emacs development. This will serve to focus the bug > load of what is "core", although we'll still be maintaining some of the ELPA > packages that don't have their own dedicated maintainers. Still, though, the bug reports for ELPA packages that don't have any other upstream are supposed to go into the Emacs bug tracker anyway. It's not like upon moving a package to ELPA, we can immediately declare it obsolete. Right? > I very much agree with this. I have used many, _many_ bug trackers in the > past, but I'm finding that debbugs is inhibiting my ability to interact > conveniently with our bug database. It's hard to search for what I'm looking It's also slooow. > for, it's hard to navigate the bug tracker from within Emacs (is it just me, > or is debbugs.el kind of terrible?), No comments. > and unless I'm missing something, I can't > edit a bug after I've found it through the web interface: I have to go to my > mail reader in order to make changes to the bug via e-mail. It has an email interface, and a SOAP interface (sigh). > It could also be that I just haven't discovered all of the tricks that Eli > might know. Is there any documentation I should be reading beyond what's on > the GNU bug tracker page? debbugs.el has a feature like sending control messages to the bug tracker, which allows to close/unclose/merge bugs, etc. I've been able to do something useful with it once or twice. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, 2015-11-11 21:03 ` Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 21:06 ` John Wiegley 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: John Wiegley @ 2015-11-11 21:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov Cc: Eli Zaretskii, Stephen Leake, emacs-tangents, Richard Stallman, john >>>>> Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes: > Still, though, the bug reports for ELPA packages that don't have any other > upstream are supposed to go into the Emacs bug tracker anyway. > It's not like upon moving a package to ELPA, we can immediately declare it > obsolete. Right? This is true. At least it will get a tag so that we know it's in ELPA. ELPA packages have the advantage of being able to deliver bug fixes post-release very easily. Anything that's in core has a much longer delay, and so is more important to fix sooner for that reason. John ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, 2015-11-11 20:50 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:03 ` Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 21:14 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Wiegley; +Cc: emacs-tangents, john, stephen_leake, rms, dgutov > From: John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org>, emacs-tangents@gnu.org, john@yates-sheets.org, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:50:53 -0800 > > It could also be that I just haven't discovered all of the tricks that Eli > might know. Is there any documentation I should be reading beyond what's on > the GNU bug tracker page? I don't have any tricks. I'm subscribed to the bug mailing list and read each and every bug report. If it's something I decide to look into, I leave the mail in my inbox and get to that when I have time. That's all. Taking care of a bug, for me, could be as simple as reproducing it (or not) and posting the results, or it could be a request for the OP to try something and report back, or it could be a full-fledged debug session. Either way, all I need from the tracker is the data about the bug. Whatever debbugs does, it cannot screw that up. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) 2015-11-11 20:39 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 20:50 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley @ 2015-11-11 21:10 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:15 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:23 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov; +Cc: emacs-tangents, stephen_leake, john > Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org, john@yates-sheets.org > From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:39:25 +0200 > > On 11/11/2015 05:43 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >>> These considerations will become valid only when we have enough > >>> developers paying attention to bugs that are reported. (That includes > >>> you, Stephen, btw.) > > > > (Upon re-reading, I apologize for being so blunt. It just feels too > > lonely there, at times.) > > I think a significant part of that problem is self-imposed. Not sure I understand what you mean by that. Self-imposed by me? > Personally, I try to pay attention to bugs that are related to code that > I at least have touched at some point, or bugs that affect me directly, > but it seems there aren't too many of those. And I don't think it's > reasonable to expect much more of any contributor. I disagree. IME, frequently just looking or stepping through unfamiliar code can reveal bugs whose reasons we can easily understand and fix. Just a few minutes ago I had this experience once more, see bug#21881. I assure you I knew nothing at all about mm-url.el, and still don't. Still, it took me just a few minutes to understand why EWW barfs and see the solution that I'm sure is right. You should try this some time. I think everybody here should. Worst that could happen is that you will only be able to add some non-trivial information to the bug report, based on what you saw, without actually finding a solution. But even that alone could allow someone else to suggest a solution. That, too, have happened to me. Bottom line is: people like you and me (and many others here) know quite a lot about Emacs and about debugging, and can find solutions to many bugs even in unfamiliar code. > Our bug tracker is peculiar, and on its own turns many less experienced > users away. Users that could participate in triaging bugs, at least, if > not writing patches. Maybe trying out submitted patches, too. Yes, triage would help as well. As for the bug tracker, I don't see how it could have such a detrimental effect on potential contributors. It's just a mailing list, not unlike this one. In addition, we have an Emacs package that interacts with the tracker, so one could work with bugs without ever looking at either the Web forms or the email messages. I'm not saying there's no place for improvements, but I cannot imagine that the reason for such a small number of people who work on bugs is the bug tracker. I think it's more likely the fear of diving into unfamiliar code. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, 2015-11-11 21:10 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:15 ` John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:23 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: John Wiegley @ 2015-11-11 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-tangents, john, stephen_leake, Dmitry Gutov >>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > In addition, we have an Emacs package that interacts with the tracker, so > one could work with bugs without ever looking at either the Web forms or the > email messages. How do you use debbugs.el to query for the bugs you look at each day, Eli? John ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, 2015-11-11 21:15 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley @ 2015-11-11 21:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Wiegley; +Cc: emacs-tangents, john, stephen_leake, dgutov > From: John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> > Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, emacs-tangents@gnu.org, stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org, john@yates-sheets.org > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:15:22 -0800 > > How do you use debbugs.el to query for the bugs you look at each day, Eli? I don't use debbugs.el. I just mentioned it for the benefit of those who might prefer it to the email and Web interfaces. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) 2015-11-11 21:10 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:15 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley @ 2015-11-11 21:23 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 21:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 21:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-tangents, stephen_leake, john On 11/11/2015 11:10 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> I think a significant part of that problem is self-imposed. > > Not sure I understand what you mean by that. Self-imposed by me? By the Emacs developers, collectively, over time. I don't know who's responsible for each issue in particular. > I disagree. IME, frequently just looking or stepping through > unfamiliar code can reveal bugs whose reasons we can easily understand > and fix. Just a few minutes ago I had this experience once more, see > bug#21881. I assure you I knew nothing at all about mm-url.el, and > still don't. Still, it took me just a few minutes to understand why > EWW barfs and see the solution that I'm sure is right. I'm not saying I couldn't do that, but there's a limit to the number of areas I want to be familiar with. I also have limited of time and other projects, starving for attention. I'm also currently exhausted by trying to explain the difference between "project" and "libraries", to some people, over a zillion email messages. > You should try this some time. I think everybody here should. The above is the primary method I do get acquainted with new code. > Bottom line is: people like you and me (and many others here) know > quite a lot about Emacs and about debugging, and can find solutions to > many bugs even in unfamiliar code. Been there, done that. Especially in third-party code, where it's much easier to discuss the issues, explore the code, etc, everything without closing the browser. > As for the bug tracker, I don't see how it could have such a > detrimental effect on potential contributors. It's just a mailing > list, not unlike this one. "Just a mailing list" is already a big barrier. First, most users are unaccustomed to dealing with mailing lists. Second, many that are, still expect a bug tracker to be something more. > I'm not saying there's no place for improvements, but I cannot imagine > that the reason for such a small number of people who work on bugs is > the bug tracker. I think it's more likely the fear of diving into > unfamiliar code. How do you explain the low number of users triaging the bugs? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) 2015-11-11 21:23 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 21:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:31 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 21:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov; +Cc: emacs-tangents, stephen_leake, john > Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org, stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org, > john@yates-sheets.org > From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:23:45 +0200 > > > I'm not saying there's no place for improvements, but I cannot imagine > > that the reason for such a small number of people who work on bugs is > > the bug tracker. I think it's more likely the fear of diving into > > unfamiliar code. > > How do you explain the low number of users triaging the bugs? I just tried to do that, above: I think it's a kind of fear. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) 2015-11-11 21:30 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:31 ` Dmitry Gutov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 21:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-tangents, stephen_leake, john On 11/11/2015 11:30 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> How do you explain the low number of users triaging the bugs? > > I just tried to do that, above: I think it's a kind of fear. But you don't have to dive into the code, just to triage a bug. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) 2015-11-11 21:23 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 21:30 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:54 ` Dmitry Gutov 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov; +Cc: emacs-tangents, stephen_leake, john > From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:23:45 +0200 > Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org, stephen_leake@stephe-leake.org, > john@yates-sheets.org > > > I disagree. IME, frequently just looking or stepping through > > unfamiliar code can reveal bugs whose reasons we can easily understand > > and fix. Just a few minutes ago I had this experience once more, see > > bug#21881. I assure you I knew nothing at all about mm-url.el, and > > still don't. Still, it took me just a few minutes to understand why > > EWW barfs and see the solution that I'm sure is right. > > I'm not saying I couldn't do that, but there's a limit to the number of > areas I want to be familiar with. I also have limited of time and other > projects, starving for attention. > > I'm also currently exhausted by trying to explain the difference between > "project" and "libraries", to some people, over a zillion email messages. > > > You should try this some time. I think everybody here should. > > The above is the primary method I do get acquainted with new code. > > > Bottom line is: people like you and me (and many others here) know > > quite a lot about Emacs and about debugging, and can find solutions to > > many bugs even in unfamiliar code. > > Been there, done that. Especially in third-party code, where it's much > easier to discuss the issues, explore the code, etc, everything without > closing the browser. Then it sounds like you agree with me, and we both are doing about the bugs whatever we can, given our free resources. Thanks, and please keep up. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) 2015-11-11 21:42 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2015-11-11 21:54 ` Dmitry Gutov 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2015-11-11 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-tangents, stephen_leake, john On 11/11/2015 11:42 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Then it sounds like you agree with me, and we both are doing about the > bugs whatever we can, given our free resources. Thanks, and please > keep up. With many of your points, yes. And thank you too. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-11-11 21:54 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <CAJnXXogfOJEO3fbiVnE-v3q_KAM71wO_YUw7NBehwTE4S1SMsQ@mail.gmail.com> [not found] ` <m2611ahqtq.fsf@Vulcan.attlocal.net> [not found] ` <8337wdn6uu.fsf@gnu.org> [not found] ` <m26119bxcj.fsf@Vulcan.attlocal.net> [not found] ` <86611975jo.fsf_-_@stephe-leake.org> [not found] ` <838u65kxly.fsf@gnu.org> [not found] ` <86mvuk4xxd.fsf@stephe-leake.org> [not found] ` <831tbwlext.fsf@gnu.org> 2015-11-11 20:39 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 20:50 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:03 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 21:06 ` John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:14 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:10 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:15 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, John Wiegley 2015-11-11 21:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:23 ` Too few people taking care of bug reports, was: Re: Release process (was Re: Move to a cadence release model?) Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 21:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:31 ` Dmitry Gutov 2015-11-11 21:42 ` Eli Zaretskii 2015-11-11 21:54 ` Dmitry Gutov
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