From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mohsen BANAN Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bidi-display-reordering is now non-nil by default Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 18:14:41 -0700 Organization: ByStar Federation of Autonomous Libre Services -- http://www.by-star.net Message-ID: References: <20110731.082721.451360942.wl@gnu.org> <20110731.085115.40009301.wl@gnu.org> <877h6yanje.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <878vre95g3.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87fwlm7fam.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87bowa7dza.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <877h6y7chn.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <831ux6cv5o.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1312161304 3130 80.91.229.12 (1 Aug 2011 01:15:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 01:15:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: David Kastrup , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 01 03:14:59 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Qnh5o-0003C9-Qg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 01 Aug 2011 03:14:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43081 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qnh5n-00079c-NU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 21:14:51 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41091) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qnh5k-00079X-RS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 21:14:49 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qnh5j-0005Dl-JC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 21:14:48 -0400 Original-Received: from 0016.bacs.by-star.net ([198.62.92.166]:32908) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Qnh5j-0005DF-8u for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 31 Jul 2011 21:14:47 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 14341 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2011 18:09:40 -0700 Original-Received: from 192.168.0.181 ([192.168.0.181]) by 0016.bacs.by-star.net ([198.62.92.166]) with ESMTP via TCP; 01 Aug 2011 01:09:40 -0000 In-Reply-To: <831ux6cv5o.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 31 Jul 2011 18:44:03 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 198.62.92.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:142617 Archived-At: >>>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 18:44:03 +0300, Eli Zaretskii said: >> From: David Kastrup >> Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:26:12 +0200 David> I consider that approach a non-starter. Or rather a non-finisher. Eli> Look, you only learned about this issue this morning. I don't think Eli> it's wise to make up our minds about the best solution after so litt= le Eli> thought. I think we need more data points and more rational Eli> discussions of the various aspects of this. I would also like to he= ar Eli> at least one other serious user of R2L scripts. This is an important Eli> usability issue, it shouldn't be decided on a knee-jerk basis. I agree.=20 This is a good point to spend some time and formulate some goals, policies and strategies. I consider myself a serious user of R2L scripts (Persian/Farsi). And here is my $0.02. With bidi-display-reordering now set to non-nil by default, a new chapter has been opened. The previous chapter was adding bidi to emacs as an editor. The current chapter is that of adding bidi to emacs as a User Environment (even broader than a desktop environment). That will likely involve modifications to many emacs packages. Prior to going towards the discussion of what are the better ways of doing that, I think it is a good idea to ask the question of:=20 When emacs24 is released and we say "emacs24 has bidi", =20=20 What does that mean? Would support for R2L scripts in emacs24 be same as L2R, in every respect and every where? Or would emacs24 just support R2L in its core as an editor? -- no goal of having any packages being bidi-aware. Of course, there is plenty of room between those two extremes. In which case, there is the question of: which packages? As an R2L scripts user, my hope is for emacs24 at a minimum to have: A- All emacs24 foundational packages be bidi-aware: dired, buffers lists, ... B- One usable set of basic personal communication/organization tools: Gnus, bbdb, calendar, org As far as I can tell, making an emacs package bidi-aware involves 2 things: 1) Explicit over writing of paragraph direction where needed 2) Custom formating because of bidi For (2), here is an example of bidi in subject line messing up the summary lines of Gnus. ---- Gnus Summary Sample Begin ---- :! 2 moons in the sky , August the 27th, =D9=8A=DA=A9 =D8=A2=D8=B3=D9=85= =D8=A7=D9=86 =D9=88 =D8=AF=D9=88 =D9=85=D8=A7=D9=87| 37 |First LAST = |Jul 13 '10=20 :! Fw: =D8=A8=D8=B3=DB=8C=D8=A7=D8=B1 =D8=AC=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=A8 =D9=88 =D8= =AE=D9=88=D8=A7=D9=86=D8=AF=D9=86=DB=8C =D8=A7=D8=B3=D8=AA ... =D9=81=D9=82= =D8=B7 =D8=A8=D8=A7 =D8=AF=D9=82=D8=AA =D9=88 =D8=AD=D9=88=D8=B5=D9=84=D9= =87 =D8=A8=D8=AE=D9=88| 284 |First LAST |14:15=20 :! Re: Next Saturday instead of this weekend | 36 |First LA= ST |14:22=20 ---- Gnus Summary Sample Ends ---- The line number column for first message [English+Farsi] (37) is out of place. The line number column for second message [Farsi] (284) is out of place. For (1) paragraph direction detection, there may be things that can be done in the core to improve auto direction detection. Making all of this happen is likely not going to be easy because most (if not all) emacs package developers are non-bidi-readers who likely don't need or care about bidi. So, I think we need to look for more serious bidi users and pair them up with well selected package owners. For example, if Lars wanted to make the Gnus Summary bidi-aware, I am there. Your thoughts? ...Mohsen ...=D9=85=D8=AD=D8=B3=D9=86