From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrea Corallo Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:39:59 -0500 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10170"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 21 14:41:01 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tE7Qb-0002RN-L2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 14:41:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tE7Pp-0005ta-5C; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:40:13 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tE7Pe-0005nT-0s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:40:03 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tE7Pc-0001Zr-1b; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:40:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=ZH5tL4N+5a0nzS9LiRj5sKHdFXte0DyjWIFSEx3/+DU=; b=Oz1TL8MJp2XBJpSEOPDy 5UACwQXUerQ1i91KAYHi5ZlwxHqRX0aviJMiB75HeVh69Y4WO3DdkfTaduR1JAUgdVNW4eXtcCDxA C+a1YGvM/qK3TFhsNAoDLMUjSPrHvc31l/JsJnvzxd1EfVC+1fwOWntKtN5gOeLKeU5RhAFd1jN+8 LJ8PjLReTczrf+Ui0Dg/PG2/01Cl4ToPOKIM9QWx7Sd1AvLWSAst6HL5swvwnHesGGGbNuaYEfQAK fube5Y+X7t3vG2jHVanD6O98KuTS9sp4vwxzPLukCaHhCQuiwpk344ZCtE7ug/+qbin/jPnkFzCsm CH5vTE4qZD4uNQ==; Original-Received: from acorallo by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tE7Pb-0005GF-CV; Thu, 21 Nov 2024 08:39:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2024 15:13:18 +0000") X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325547 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, Emacs. > > I'm resigning my position as Emacs contributor. > > The immediate reason is that, as maintainer of CC Mode, CC Mode's > symbols, its names, were taken by Emacs and used for other purposes > without informing me, much less consulting me. That makes my position as > CC Mode maintainer here untenable. > > Eli Zaretskii and I have had extensive discussions, both in public and in > private email, over the last week or so, but we have been unable to reach > any satisfactory compromise solution. > > Names are important. They have power. To take somebody's/somthing's > name and misuse it is an exercise of aggression. Try using "Emacs" or > even "free software" to mean something different, and see just how > quickly you would hear back from Richard Stallman. This misuse of CC > Mode's "trademarks", the symbols `c-mode', `c++-mode', and perhaps > `c-or-c++-mode', is just such an act of aggression. > > These symbols have been appropriated by Emacs to mean "the current > preferred mode for C", etc., rather than C Mode, C++ Mode etc. In > certain circumstances, in particular, in Local Variables: sections and > auto-mode-alist, there is now no longer any way unambiguously to specify > C Mode or C++ Mode. Up till recently ("\\.myc\\'" . c-mode) in > auto-mode-alist meant C Mode, and would have had the effect of > auto-loading CC Mode, if needed, and running C Mode. > > The change took place in the commit for bug#69191 "New var > `major-mode-remap-defaults`, for packages". It sounds so innocent, but > is an extremely bad solution for whatever problem (unspecified in the > commit message) it was intended to solve. A major mode using it changes > the interfaces of other libraries in an uncontrolled way. This is not > good software engineering. > > This bug was raised and committed by Stefan Monnier. Despite the fact > that the bug fix directly impinged upon CC Mode, and there was even a > change to cc-mode.el in the patch, he failed even to inform me. The only > two modes substantially affected by this change were ruby-mode and CC > Mode, and it is clear that Dmitry Gutov, maintainer of ruby-mode, was > aware of the change. Had I known of this proposal, I would certainly > have objected to it. Stefan is intelligent enough to have realised this, > and maybe his avoidance of open discussion was motivated by this. > > Bug#69191 was a big change. In Emacs, we have a convention whereby big > changes are discussed openly on emacs-devel and a consensus reached > before the change is made. Stefan Monnier has regularly violated this > convention, possibly believing that his ideas for Emacs are so good as to > be beyond question. Any attempt to question his ideas is likely to be > met by evasive non-answers, if any response at all is forthcoming. I > could give several paragraphs worth of justification for these > assertions, but I think everybody here knows I am right. > > In Emacs there is also a convention of treating eachother with respect on > the mailing lists. Sadly this convention is superficial, and seems only > to mean things like not using swear words. The truly contemptuous > communication style, this evasive non-answering, seems to be regarded as > acceptable. I suggest that this change. > > Stefan's habit of making big changes in Emacs without seeking consensus > is at the heart of why I am resigning. These changes have caused Emacs a > lot of damage over the years and have caused other contributors, > including me, extra work and difficulty. Stefan is a Jekyll-and-Hyde > character. On the one hand, he's a very capable hacker, and is always > ready to help others with technical questions. On the other hand, as > mentioned, he is contemptuous of the Emacs conventions, and unlike > Richard and Eli, does not have the gift of knowing what the Right Thing > is. > > I strongly recommend that Stefan somehow be reigned in and required to > observe Emacs's conventions about open discussion and courteous > communication. As I mentioned, his violations of these are at the core > of why I feel unable to continue contributing to Emacs. > > I will shortly be unsubscribing from emacs-devel. I intend to carry on > maintaining stand alone CC Mode, and I'm prepared to deal with any CC > Mode issues which arise in Emacs. Please post these to > bug-cc-mode@gnu.org. > > It just remains to say that my respect for Eli and the other maintainers > remains undiminished, and that I wish all of them and the Emacs project > all success in the future. > > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). Hi Alan, I don't have much to add as I share all Eli's and Stefan's opinions here. I as well don't agree with your critic of S.M. actions, but more importantly, please assume always good faith from other Emacs developers (as suggested here [1]). Our goal here of just making a better Emacs, this is shared by every one, and would be a pity to loose your contribution. Please reconsider your position, sometimes stress and other factors can tweak our conclusion momentary, but let's not forget our goals. Thanks Andrea [1]