From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrea Corallo Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2024 17:18:58 -0500 Message-ID: References: <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> <86ldxbofgw.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40744"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Madhu , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 23 23:19:38 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tEyTa-000ART-EQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 23:19:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEySz-0005Uq-SR; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 17:19:01 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEySy-0005Uc-6x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 17:19:00 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEySx-0001TB-Qg; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 17:18:59 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=yQvEnKtGKnCkKCDetnV9WM8btp2APJi9iVYERbA1LdQ=; b=H238apCd9VFWFuBGIfn6 wewoBtS4m6OPbWC6QC9aeyhf5O96DFQxhyRkR5x9rrI67EP8cxC4KGDXCcmZ+Bkd4/AqzaUh6s168 pYtj2IKBnznBGiiaLbIlp7/Ft24g8QxkYJe3Gt+YacbrZZvkaGlKIqvL1VaxRPOMVGWXWrMds9HIg s/Q6C2pOm+Z6OSHZIxI/faxxmWHPOVMTsbMrPn2ZrazR3If6cNClOrknxCm2extrf6VuByE9MeW6u qL8etU1yi6sTKIQ5Yv7LxBabQcc2e5hvkcmuHBM8M2We0zA09inyiLoDvdlgMf3Dh3iBeBDuVvdMp PZpphZHlilSIxg==; Original-Received: from acorallo by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tEySw-0006GO-C5; Sat, 23 Nov 2024 17:18:59 -0500 In-Reply-To: <86ldxbofgw.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 22 Nov 2024 10:11:27 +0200") X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:325636 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Madhu >> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 12:54:01 +0530 >> >> * Adam Porter <169c6564-4722-4338-a049-5f8f3ce69394@alphapapa.net> : >> Wrote on Thu, 21 Nov 2024 23:35:35 -0600: >> >> > But it is not okay for you to blame Stefan for your decision to leave. >> > As you know, in the past he served as the Emacs maintainer, and now he >> > remains a prominent contributor, and a maintainer of some parts of >> > Emacs, but not of the overall project. So if you can't abide some >> > technical decisions that have been made by Stefan M., you ought to take >> > them up with Eli, Andrea, and Stefan K. And if they disagree with you >> > and won't overturn those decisions, and you decide to leave, you ought >> > to ascribe that responsibility simply and honestly, not by publicly >> > defaming Stefan M. like this. It does not behoove you, nor the GNU >> > Emacs project, to act this way. >> >> The correct response to these complaints would be if Eli and the >> maintainers would reign in Stefan and address the genuine concerns >> rather than gerrymandering on with the present course. >> >> This again purposely misses the point and does not address the isssue >> raised by the resignation. That there are problems with Stefans >> intentions which are not as stated which are of concern to emacs >> development as a whole, these are being swept under the floor. There are >> repeated concerns that the way Stefan is leading development us >> destroying the value of core which RMS brought to us from the 70s. This >> is being set aside through bulldozering narrative. > > When we see such problems, they are _never_ swept under the carpet. > On the contrary, the reaction is usually immediate and quite harsh, > including (but not limited to) reverting the offending changes in a > non-negotiable way. > > The reason this didn't happen with Stefan Monnier is that at least I > don't see any particular problem of this kind in what Stefan does (and > did during the decades of his very active involvement in the project). > The Emacs model of development is that we completely trust leading > contributors to install changes without discussing them. This trust > works well and keeps our development moving forward very fast, > although sometimes there are good-faith mistakes, which then require > discussions a-posteriori, and sometimes (rarely) end up with changes > being reverted or radically modified. All of the leading > contributors, including yours truly, have sometimes, rarely, made such > mistakes. Stefan's record is not different in this regard from any > other's. The changes he installed in March indeed should have been > discussed more, but I don't expect us rejecting them as result. > Moreover, Alan himself made such a mistake when he installed his > cc-mode.el change back in May, the change which led to bug#74339, and > eventually to this sad result (because Alan staunchly opposed to > modifying his change from back then, even though the modifications > proposed to him would not affect the effect of his change in any way). > > So there's nothing here that requires any "reigning in", just the > normal practice of Emacs development, which hasn't changed in decades, > because we think it fits well the way this community is structured, > and the nature and the vast span of expertise needed to develop an > maintain Emacs. > > I cannot speak for Stefan Kangas and Andrea, but I'd be very surprised > if they didn't agree with what I say above. We definitely don't agree > that the many changes developed and installed by Stefan are > "destroying the value of core which RMS brought to us from the 70s." > Quite the opposite. Thanks Eli for being so clear on this, this is indeed absolutely agreed. Andrea