(no subject)

(no subject)

[Richard Stallman]

bzr was slow on savannah due to the use of sftp.
Do people find bzr satisfactory now?


-- 
Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org

Re: (no subject)

[Werner LEMBERG]

> bzr was slow on savannah due to the use of sftp.
> Do people find bzr satisfactory now?

Well, I'm only doing `bzr pull', and it seems indeed to be more
responsive than previously.  However, the amount of data transferred
by bzr is still excessively large.  For example, updating from
rev. 101894 (Oct. 10th) to today's rev. 101979 (with `bzr pull') used
more than 20MByte!  Looking at the amount of changes actually applied
to the repository, I estimate that git would need only approx. 200 to
300kByte ^[$(Q#|^[(B this is 70 to 100 times less...

It would be great if someone using an emacs git repository could
verify my estimation.

git compresses the data on the remote side before transferring it.
Does bzr omit that step?  Maybe I'm missing a bzr option?  Otherwise,
it looks like a severe flaw in the design.  Given that many users
(including me currently) use mobile internet connections which are
sometimes extremely slow due to weak signal strength, bandwidth *is*
an issue even today.


    Werner

Re: (no subject)

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Well, I'm only doing `bzr pull', and it seems indeed to be more
> responsive than previously.  However, the amount of data transferred
> by bzr is still excessively large.  For example, updating from
> rev. 101894 (Oct. 10th) to today's rev. 101979 (with `bzr pull')
> used more than 20MByte!

I forgot to mention that I'm currently using bzr version 2.0.5 in case
this makes a difference w.r.t. the amount of transferred data.


    Werner

Re: Is bzr+ssh's speed satisfactory?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:10:01 +0200 (CEST)
> From: Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> 
> > Well, I'm only doing `bzr pull', and it seems indeed to be more
> > responsive than previously.  However, the amount of data transferred
> > by bzr is still excessively large.  For example, updating from
> > rev. 101894 (Oct. 10th) to today's rev. 101979 (with `bzr pull')
> > used more than 20MByte!
> 
> I forgot to mention that I'm currently using bzr version 2.0.5 in case
> this makes a difference w.r.t. the amount of transferred data.

I doubt that: I have Bazaar 2.2.1, and the combined size of the data
between Oct 10 and yesterday was 19MB or me.

Re: Is bzr+ssh's speed satisfactory?

[Eli Zaretskii]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp-2004, Size: 920 bytes --]

> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:08:17 +0200 (CEST)
> From: Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> However, the amount of data transferred
> by bzr is still excessively large.  For example, updating from
> rev. 101894 (Oct. 10th) to today's rev. 101979 (with `bzr pull') used
> more than 20MByte!  Looking at the amount of changes actually applied
> to the repository, I estimate that git would need only approx. 200 to
> 300kByte ^[$(Q#|^[(B this is 70 to 100 times less...
> 
> It would be great if someone using an emacs git repository could
> verify my estimation.
> 
> git compresses the data on the remote side before transferring it.
> Does bzr omit that step?  Maybe I'm missing a bzr option?  Otherwise,
> it looks like a severe flaw in the design.

These questions are better sent to the Bazaar list
(bazaar@lists.canonical.com), where the Bazaar developers can give
definitive answers to them.

Re: (no subject)

[Richard Stallman]

    Well, I'm only doing `bzr pull', and it seems indeed to be more
    responsive than previously.  However, the amount of data transferred
    by bzr is still excessively large.  For example, updating from
    rev. 101894 (Oct. 10th) to today's rev. 101979 (with `bzr pull') used
    more than 20MByte!  Looking at the amount of changes actually applied
    to the repository, I estimate that git would need only approx. 200 to
    300kByte   this is 70 to 100 times less...

    It would be great if someone using an emacs git repository could
    verify my estimation.

It would be interesting to set up parallel repositories, the latest
bzr and git, and update them at the same times.  Then it would be
possible to rigorously compare the amount of data transferred.

    git compresses the data on the remote side before transferring it.
    Does bzr omit that step?  Maybe I'm missing a bzr option?

It might be that the compression occurs in scp, and you're measuring
the amount of raw data rather than the amount actually transmitted.

But that's just a speculation.  It would be interesting to find out
for certain.

-- 
Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org

Re: Is bzr+ssh's speed satisfactory?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 00:59:53 -0400
> 
> bzr was slow on savannah due to the use of sftp.
> Do people find bzr satisfactory now?

It is significantly faster, especially with frequent updates.  Where
previously I had to wait up to 5-6 minutes for an update of 3-4 days
worth of development, now it's down to 1-2 minutes or so, depending on
the amount of files that were modified.  Where previously it took 2
minutes to update a few files that were modified during several hours
since the last update, it now takes 25 seconds.  Previously it would
take about 40 seconds to get the "tree is up to date" result; now it
takes 10 to 15.

This is with a 3.5Mbps link, with other jobs running on the same
machine and using the link simultaneously.

I don't remember the exact timings of CVS, but I think the numbers are
comparable, perhaps even slightly faster.

Re: (no subject)

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> bzr was slow on savannah due to the use of sftp.
> Do people find bzr satisfactory now?

It is much improved and personally I find it satisfactory now, yes.

bzr on Savannah

[Glenn Morris]

> > bzr was slow on savannah due to the use of sftp.
> > Do people find bzr satisfactory now?
> 
> It is much improved and personally I find it satisfactory now, yes.

PS that comment was about basic bzr functionality. One service that
Savannah still does not provide is the ability to browse bzr
repositories via the web. The service that provides this is called
"Loggerhead", analogous to "ViewVC" for CVS repositories.
Several GNU projects have asked Savannah to implement this over many
months. Since roughly the start of the year, attempting to browse the
relevant page on Savannah simply reports:

http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/emacs

"loggerhead disabled due to instability; if you're interesting in
maintaining it, please contact us"

This issue is not as important as the sftp one was, but I think it is
important for Savannah to provide this service for Bzr repositories,
as it seems to do for every other version control system it supports.
This is the last gap in their bzr support that I can think of.

Re: bzr on Savannah

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 14:43:11 -0400
> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Cc: 
> 
> Since roughly the start of the year, attempting to browse the
> relevant page on Savannah simply reports:
> 
> http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/emacs
> 
> "loggerhead disabled due to instability; if you're interesting in
> maintaining it, please contact us"

Correction: now it reports: "HTTP 404 - File not found".

> This issue is not as important as the sftp one was, but I think it is
> important for Savannah to provide this service for Bzr repositories,
> as it seems to do for every other version control system it supports.

Yes, I agree.  I posted a request to the Savannah list to fix this
up.  Perhaps Richard's word will give this a boost.

Re: bzr on Savannah

[Glenn Morris]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/emacs
>> 
>> "loggerhead disabled due to instability; if you're interesting in
>> maintaining it, please contact us"
>
> Correction: now it reports: "HTTP 404 - File not found".

I still get the first form (not that it matters much either way).

Re: bzr on Savannah

[Richard Stallman]

    One service that
    Savannah still does not provide is the ability to browse bzr
    repositories via the web. The service that provides this is called
    "Loggerhead", analogous to "ViewVC" for CVS repositories.

We need someone to volunteer to help Savannah and do this.
Would someone like to step forward?

     Since roughly the start of the year, attempting to browse the
    relevant page on Savannah simply reports:

    http://bzr.savannah.gnu.org/lh/emacs

    "loggerhead disabled due to instability;

What happened before then?  Did it work?
Or did it fail some other way?

-- 
Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org

Re: bzr on Savannah

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> We need someone to volunteer to help Savannah and do this.
> Would someone like to step forward?

Not me.

>     "loggerhead disabled due to instability;
>
> What happened before then?  Did it work?
> Or did it fail some other way?

I think maybe it did work at some point, but it was almost a year ago
so I can't remember.

Bzr on Savannah

[Richard Stallman]

I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Sascha Wilde]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
> Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?

Sorry in case I missed some important threads on this issue, but is the
decision on what DSCM to choose already made and if so why was bzr
(bazaar) chosen?

I have a vague memory that it was said, that bzr might become a part of
GNU, but as far as I can see, it isn't yet.

cheers
sascha
-- 
Sascha Wilde   -.-. ..- .-. .. --- ... .. - -.-- 
               -.- .. .-.. .-.. . -.. 
               - .... .
               -.-. .- -

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Bastien]

Sascha Wilde <wilde@sha-bang.de> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
>> Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?
>
> Sorry in case I missed some important threads on this issue, but is the
> decision on what DSCM to choose already made and if so why was bzr
> (bazaar) chosen?

AFAIK we are still waiting for the paper that ESR promised on this
topic.

-- 
Bastien

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Bastien writes:

 > AFAIK we are still waiting for the paper that ESR promised on this
 > topic.

FWIW, no discussion on that has happened in that last month.  Let me
see if he's committed any changes ... no.

Maybe he moved development to a different repo ... but if you're
waiting on Eric, you probably should get in direct touch with him.

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Richard Stallman]

Bzr is now a GNU package, though it has not been updated to reflect
that.  It is most unlikely that git or Mercurial will be GNU packages.
Thus, unless Bzr is unsuitable, we should use Bzr.

We've seen enough to know that each has its advantages but all are
workable.  So we should use Bzr.  And if there are aspects of it which
prove inconvenient, we can ask the Maintainer of Bzr to improve them.

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Miles Bader]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> Thus, unless Bzr is unsuitable, we should use Bzr.

I've seen no evidence that bzr would be unsuitable, unless it's too slow
on the Emacs source-base.  Obviously setting up an Emacs bzr repository
is a good way to find out about that.  :-)

It'd be good to have a bzr client installed on fencepost, but the
version shown by apt-get (fencepost seems to be running ubuntu) is
_wildly_ out of date (like 2 years old), so I dunno the best way to go
about that.  I get the feeling the fencepost admins don't do "apt-get
update" very often...  [I prefer not to install software in ~/bin if
it's likely other people will want to use it.]

-Miles

-- 
Acquaintance, n. A person whom we know well enough to borrow from, but not
well enough to lend to.

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Xavier Maillard]

Hi,

   I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
   Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?

Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Miles Bader]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>    I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
>    Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?
>
> Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?

I pull from it occasionally and it seems to work pretty well, but I do
most of my work using arch/CVS.

-Miles

-- 
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without
individual responsibility.

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Xavier Maillard]

   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
   >    I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
   >    Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?
   >
   > Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?

   I pull from it occasionally and it seems to work pretty well, but I do
   most of my work using arch/CVS.

Don't know about bzr and arch, but Git is really easy to use and
works pretty well. I will try to see how cvsimport'ing it into
git works.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Eric Hanchrow]

>>>>> "Xavier" == Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

    Xavier> Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?

I get my Emacs from git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git


-- 
If you're trying to choose between two theories and one gives
you an excuse for being lazy, the other one is probably right.
        -- Paul Graham

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[David Kastrup]

Eric Hanchrow <offby1@blarg.net> writes:

>>>>>> "Xavier" == Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>
>     Xavier> Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?
>
> I get my Emacs from git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git

Same here.  Very convenient.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Xavier Maillard]

   Eric Hanchrow <offby1@blarg.net> writes:

   >>>>>> "Xavier" == Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
   >
   >     Xavier> Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?
   >
   > I get my Emacs from git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git

   Same here.  Very convenient.

Tried it but it failed:

[1] xma@localhost> git clone git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git                                                     ~/usr/src/GITed
Initialized empty Git repository in /home/xma/usr/src/GITed/emacs/.git/
fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
fetch-pack from 'git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git' failed.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Eric Hanchrow]

    Tried it but it failed:

    [1] xma@localhost> git clone git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git                                                     ~/usr/src/GITed
    Initialized empty Git repository in /home/xma/usr/src/GITed/emacs/.git/
    fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
    fetch-pack from 'git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git' failed.

I can't explain that; sorry.  All I can say is "it worked on my
machine"™

-- 
If you're trying to choose between two theories and one gives
you an excuse for being lazy, the other one is probably right.
        -- Paul Graham

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Andreas Schwab]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

> fetch-pack from 'git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git' failed.

Please try git://repo.or.cz/emacs.git instead.  (I accidentally pasted
the push url.)

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Xavier Maillard]

   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

   > fetch-pack from 'git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git' failed.

   Please try git://repo.or.cz/emacs.git instead.  (I accidentally pasted
   the push url.)

A bit late but I tried it and for the archive, I can say this url
is working.

Thank you.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Michael Olson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 806 bytes --]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

>    Eric Hanchrow <offby1@blarg.net> writes:
>
>    >>>>>> "Xavier" == Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>    >
>    >     Xavier> Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?
>    >
>    > I get my Emacs from git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>    Same here.  Very convenient.
>
> Tried it but it failed:
>
> [1] xma@localhost> git clone git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wrong URL.

-- 
|       Michael Olson  |  FSF Associate Member #652     |
| http://mwolson.org/  |  Hobbies: Lisp, HCoop          |
| Projects: Emacs, Muse, ERC, EMMS, ErBot, DVC, Planner |
`-------------------------------------------------------'

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 188 bytes --]

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Andreas Schwab]

Michael Olson <mwolson@gnu.org> writes:

> Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>    Eric Hanchrow <offby1@blarg.net> writes:
>>
>>    >>>>>> "Xavier" == Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>>    >
>>    >     Xavier> Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?
>>    >
>>    > I get my Emacs from git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>    Same here.  Very convenient.
>>
>> Tried it but it failed:
>>
>> [1] xma@localhost> git clone git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git
>                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Wrong URL.

git://repo.or.cz/emacs.git is also correct, but a different tree.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Andreas Schwab]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi,
>
>    I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
>    Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?
>
> Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?

git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Xavier Maillard]

   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

   > Hi,
   >
   >    I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
   >    Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?
   >
   > Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?

   git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git

Nice ! How is it synced with the CVS ?

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Miles Bader]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>    git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git
>
> Nice ! How is it synced with the CVS ?

Also:

   git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git

-miles
-- 
Rational, adj. Devoid of all delusions save those of observation, experience
and reflection.

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Xavier Maillard]

   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
   >    git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git
   >
   > Nice ! How is it synced with the CVS ?

   Also:

      git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git

Ah, this one is working. Thank you very much Miles

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org

Re: Bzr on Savannah

[Andreas Schwab]

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:

>    Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
>
>    > Hi,
>    >
>    >    I believe Bzr is running on Savannah tho not fully supported.
>    >    Could someone see if it is feasible to put Emacs into Bzr there?
>    >
>    > Has anybody tried to follow GNU Emacs cvs through Git yet ?
>
>    git://repo.or.cz/srv/git/emacs.git
>
> Nice ! How is it synced with the CVS ?

I'm running git-cvsimport about once a day.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
PGP key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."