From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Andrea Corallo Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proper namespaces in Elisp Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 14:26:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <237fe643-c14d-5406-b35d-a30dcd42c5ed@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="78220"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) Cc: nic@ferrier.me.uk, =?utf-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Pit-Claudel , emacs-devel , Stefan Monnier , Helmut Eller To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 05 16:27:52 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyXz-000KBj-D9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 16:27:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49746 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyXy-00066G-G0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:27:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59582) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyXK-00058y-Kp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:27:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mx.sdf.org ([205.166.94.20]:53592) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVyXI-0003dz-02 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 10:27:06 -0400 Original-Received: from sdf.org (ma.sdf.org [205.166.94.33]) by mx.sdf.org (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPS id 045EQiY2011513 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256 bits) verified NO); Tue, 5 May 2020 14:26:44 GMT Original-Received: (from akrl@localhost) by sdf.org (8.15.2/8.12.8/Submit) id 045EQiLl004443; Tue, 5 May 2020 14:26:44 GMT In-Reply-To: (=?utf-8?Q?=22Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora=22's?= message of "Tue, 5 May 2020 15:03:06 +0100") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=205.166.94.20; envelope-from=akrl@sdf.org; helo=mx.sdf.org X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/05 09:34:49 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248993 Archived-At: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora writes: > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 2:34 PM Andrea Corallo wrote: > >> I believe the program wants just to return the symbol 'aaa' and does not >> want to bother about other 1000 complications of the CL package system. > > But that's not the program you wrote. If you want to return > a symbol that is universally univocally independent of > context, you use a keyword, not an internal symbol. That > is substituting a " ' " for a " : ", a one-char change. That > different program does what you want (which I suppose > is not print the string "boom") Yes is how this is worked around that in CL. It works, I'm just saying is error prone and unnecessary complex. > You're thinking about One Big Namespace. Fine. But that's > Elisp. And it has the problems this thread is proposing to > solve. But you can go full Elisp in Common Lisp, just use > a single package always. No, I'm thinking to one namespace only for symbols *not* for bindings. This is not CL or Elisp either. >> >> I've no doubt you can make it working with CL, guess what they have made >> full operating systems with it... and it worked. > > Even if they didn't make OS's out of it. The point is I don't need > those to refute your particular arguments. > >> I'm just saying that if you look to it from another perspective is very >> complex and error prone system and this is an example. > > It's not complex. It's a powerful system. Don't use the parts you > don't understand yet, then. Look, if we had them, people would > happily hack on the "Emacs" package all the time and noone > would notice it. But people you want to use modern-string.el > could (use-package :modern-string) and find that s:thingamabob > does that sweet thing they like. > > And when you wanted to write a library, you would learn it. > It's not hard, believe me. Thanks for telling me I could learn it. I'm trying to say that I think is unnecessary complex being too low level and that there could be another way. But okay if you prefer I just haven't learned how it works. >> That said is just my opinion (arguably shared by a number of people) so >> please take it just for what it is. > > Oh I take it, sure. I just think your particular one, based on the > examples you gave me, it's based on very light (mis)usage of > the package system and misunderstanding of its features. I've just understood how CL packages works now! Thanks I'm now finally convinced. No way it can work in a way that is not already this, it would just implies the system is not understood. BTW I leave these two papers, sad to see that they have misunderstood the system too: https://zenodo.org/record/2648195 http://www.flownet.com/gat/locales.pdf Andrea --=20 akrl@sdf.org