From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Menu suggestion Date: 04 May 2004 09:32:12 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <20040503091335.8C4C.JMBARRANQUERO@wke.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1083656156 17260 80.91.224.253 (4 May 2004 07:35:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 07:35:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juanma Barranquero , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Tue May 04 09:35:47 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BKuSw-0001bX-00 for ; Tue, 04 May 2004 09:35:46 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BKuSw-0001U6-00 for ; Tue, 04 May 2004 09:35:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BKuQI-0001Dl-Kh for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Tue, 04 May 2004 03:33:02 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BKuQ9-0001C6-5A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 May 2004 03:32:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BKuPY-00011L-Br for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 May 2004 03:32:47 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BKuPX-00010g-ME for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 May 2004 03:32:15 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1] helo=lola.goethe.zz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BKuPW-0003tY-8L; Tue, 04 May 2004 03:32:14 -0400 Original-To: no-spam@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) In-Reply-To: Original-Lines: 74 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:22685 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:22685 no-spam@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes: > Juanma Barranquero writes: > > > On 30 Apr 2004 19:30:46 +0200 > > storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) wrote: > > > > > It seems that a good part of the emacs developers don't actually > > > use the emacs bindings -- > > > > I've been using Emacs daily for the past seven years, and I hardly > > use C-f, C-b, etc. > > > > Yeah, they're faster than arrow keys if you're used to them, but > > perhaps I don't usually need the raw typing speed, and I find them > > extremely non-intuitive... (now, if we were talking of vi/nethack > > cursor motion commands... :) > > So the tutorial could start by asking the user a number of > quiestions: > > 1) Do you have a Happy Hacker keyboard ? > 2) Do you use C-z, C-x, C-c, C-v for undo, cut, copy, and paste ? > > and then omit/include the relevant parts in the tutorial... That's not fair because it tries to make the user's choice for him. An experienced user exposed to other programs will _of_ _course_ be using C-z C-x C-c C-v. That does not mean that he is unable to learn other bindings if he knows the drawbacks associated with CUA bindings, and it would be unfair to be silent about them. Actually, this question need not get asked but can be figured out from the current settings. You would then get something like This is the tutorial for CUA-mode. CUA-mode offers keybindings for C-z, C-x, C-c and C-v as well as several others that are customary among applications different from Emacs. Since those bindings clash with several important ones from Emacs, CUA-mode has to do some circumventions in order not to have them shadowed irretrievably. This makes some operations somewhat tricky. CUA-mode is therefore not the default in Emacs and you might consider learning the native bindings by using the Options menu to switch off CUA-mode and selecting the tutorial again. or This is the tutorial for Emacs' normal keybindings. A different tutorial is available for CUA-mode. CUA-mode offers keybindings for C-z, C-x, C-c and C-v as well as several others that are customary among applications different from Emacs. Since those bindings clash with several important ones from Emacs, CUA-mode has to do some circumventions in order not to have them shadowed irretrievably. This makes some operations somewhat tricky. CUA-mode is therefore not the default in Emacs. If you still rather want the more widespread bindings of CUA-mode, use the Options menu to switch on CUA-mode and select the tutorial again. Anyway, unless I am mistaken, CUA-mode consists of more than C-c C-x C-v C-z bindings. There are some parts of it unless I am mistaken that don't interfere with standard keybindings and selections, or at least not to a large degree. Maybe it would be possible to adapt all those parts of CUA-mode that don't clash with existing bindings too badly. For example, C-z would probably not be too horrible to give up to CUA bindings, at least under Window systems. And the same probably goes for some key sequences for selections apart from the above ones. If we can get most of CUA in, and just customize the more controversal items to off, maybe a separate tutorial would not be needed. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum