From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Options menu Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:40:31 +0100 Message-ID: References: <010e01c52c0d$ac93ede0$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> <01c52c6d$Blat.v2.4$713e68a0@zahav.net.il> <006901c52c9b$bcf6c890$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1111354890 14128 80.91.229.2 (20 Mar 2005 21:41:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:41:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Lennart Borgman , eliz@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 20 22:41:29 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DD8Ai-0000E4-Nk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:41:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DD8Rg-0006D0-Gl for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:58:52 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DD8Q8-0005YF-6D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:57:16 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1DD8Q7-0005XT-5i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:57:15 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1DD8Q6-0005XC-QO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:57:14 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DD8AD-0000Qr-9n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:40:50 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lola.goethe.zz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DD8A6-0001l5-EJ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:40:42 -0500 Original-To: Jason Rumney In-Reply-To: (Jason Rumney's message of "Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:45:17 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:34850 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:34850 Jason Rumney writes: > David Kastrup writes: > >> Since I have stared now at the current menus for 21.4 and 22.x for >> longer than probably ever previously, I would like to mention one >> other thing that has struck me as standing out negatively, and this >> _would_ be a change with regard to 21.4: I'd swap the order of the >> "Save Options" and "Customize Emacs" menu entries to make "Save >> Options" be the last entry in the menu: that's where people look >> for it. > > I think the reason to put it above "Customize Emacs" is to avoid > misleading users into thinking that it will save changes made inside > customize. > >> I am also not happy about the "Customize Emacs" menu name: it >> implies that selecting options in the Options menu would be >> different from customizing Emacs. I'd prefer to have this menu >> called "All Options" > > This has the same potential for misleading users about the scope of > "Save Options". Ok, now I know at least a potential reason for that arrangement. Given that information, I am pretty much of the opinion that this arrangement is fundamentally broken, and swapping the two menu entries is a feeble attempt of conceiling it. We won't fool anybody but ourselves by that (well, we _will_ fool the users). Putting "customize" off the "Options" menu altother does not appear helpful (how about an unselectable entry "See also Tools/Customize"?), so the only reasonably safe way I can think of is having "Save Options" quip: "Some Options have been set with Customize. Save them too?" as long as customized non-saved options remain. Yes, this would make the proposed renaming of "Customize Emacs" into "All Options" not the best idea. However, "Customize Emacs" also does not bring across the information that "Customize" is a special way of customizing Emacs: the "Options" menu certainly is also used for customizing Emacs. So either we'd have to name this "Use Customize" or "Customize" only, or "Customize Tool" (which would beg the question why it is not in the "Tools" menu). Swapping the menu entries alone (as is the reason for the current arrangement) is far too obscure to help users figure that out. In addition, it will be a convenient shortcut for people playing around with several customize options before they settle on an arrangement they find fit for saving. I am glad to hear that there is a reason for that strange order of options, but I think the problem we are trying to solve that way requires a less subtle approach. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum