From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David.Kastrup@t-online.de (David Kastrup) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Divergence in menu appearance between Emacs Info and standalone Info Date: 06 Jun 2003 15:02:02 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <200306041404.h54E4SO30552@f7.net> <5x8ysg6p4r.fsf@kfs2.cua.dk> <200306052323.h55NNr4B002965@rum.cs.yale.edu> <9003-Fri06Jun2003125021+0300-eliz@elta.co.il> Reply-To: dak@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1054905404 28201 80.91.224.249 (6 Jun 2003 13:16:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 13:16:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 06 15:16:40 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19OH4o-0007IP-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:16:14 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19OHNN-0007xL-00 for ; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:35:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19OH69-0006dV-AC for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:17:37 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19OGyb-00043U-Pk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:09:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19OGuW-0002MF-I6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:05:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mailout08.sul.t-online.com ([194.25.134.20]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19OGrW-0001Th-It for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 09:02:30 -0400 Original-Received: from fwd01.aul.t-online.de by mailout08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 19OGrU-0002od-0D; Fri, 06 Jun 2003 15:02:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost.localdomain (rX1NZ8ZGge344g7MfYSOXKEnfIXYw65JkVXqXiupRAZY0HDjLbfloy@[62.226.11.179]) by fwd01.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 19OGrH-1ywViC0; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:02:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h56D2Atf002994; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:02:12 +0200 Original-Received: (from dak@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h56D23eq002990; Fri, 6 Jun 2003 15:02:03 +0200 Original-To: Eli Zaretskii In-Reply-To: <9003-Fri06Jun2003125021+0300-eliz@elta.co.il> Original-Lines: 44 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 X-Seen: false X-ID: rX1NZ8ZGge344g7MfYSOXKEnfIXYw65JkVXqXiupRAZY0HDjLbfloy@t-dialin.net Original-cc: bob@rattlesnake.com X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:14827 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:14827 "Eli Zaretskii" writes: > > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 19:56:40 -0400 (EDT) > > From: "Robert J. Chassell" > > > > I fear the Web browser mindset, which is to accept an inefficient > > and obsolete tool as if it were modern. > > So let's make Info documents look and feel modern, like HTML does, > without losing any of the wonderful features HTML lacks. > > With that attitude in mind, I don't see how hiding node names could > be a step in the wrong direction. Granted, it should be possible to > reveal the node names, but I don't think it means we should show > them unconditionally as part of the displayed text. Quite so. The purpose of an info reader is _not_ just to provide a syntax highlighted info source file, but to render the structure expressed in it. I'd make a much more radical proposal: image support. At the current point of time, images can only be placed within the printed manual, and only in jpeg format. Obviously, for things like screen shots and so on, png would also be desirable, but the main point is that in an Emacs buffer, only ASCII art renditions are allowed in info files. While the ASCII rendition will of course be needed as a fallback in the standalone terminal reader and on text consoles, there is no reason to press the same restriction in Emacs buffers. In particular screen shots (perhaps optionally in thumbnail form) could help in a lot in some explanatory texts. More ambitious, for example, would be mechanisms for automatically rendering equations and similar material as bitmaps, like preview-latex does in LaTeX source buffers. However, the latter might possibly better be done "live", since one does not know in advance what size and colors the screen of a user might have. Alternatively, one could generate a scalable format (like PostScript with Type1 fonts, or SVG). Sorry for spinning out of control, but stuff like that could decrease the advantages of a printout further and thus save trees. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum