From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: finger-pointer curser as default for mouse-face text Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:25:01 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1098782867 4356 80.91.229.6 (26 Oct 2004 09:27:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:27:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 26 11:27:40 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CMNcC-0002kK-00 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:27:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMNjs-0001bJ-N1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:35:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CMNhQ-00011L-1G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:33:04 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1CMNhN-0000zv-5d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:33:01 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1CMNhM-0000z7-VE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:33:01 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CMNZf-00077q-5n for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:25:03 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lola.goethe.zz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CMNZA-0003oX-KQ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:24:33 -0400 Original-To: storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) In-Reply-To: (Kim F. Storm's message of "Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:00:26 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:28968 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:28968 storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes: > Stefan Monnier writes: > >>> If the time stamps for the clicks indeed come from the X server, >>> then Kim's timed scheme would probably not be very susceptible to >>> system load/traffic congestion effects. >> >> The problm with it is that it goes against what we're trying to do, >> which is to get Emacs's UI in line with "what non-Emacs users >> expect". I.e. such users will just do a simple click and expect it >> to follow the link. > > Yes, that's what we are trying to achieve -- the fundamental problem > we discuss here is actually how to recognize when the stuff is a > link and when it is something else which has a mouse-face property. > > In the examples given until now, the non-links have the mouse-face > on an overlay -- so maybe to fix would be to only follow link which > have the mouse-face as a text property in the buffer. It does not make sense to introduce an arbitrary inconsistency because this would fix a problem with an arbitrary example that just happens to exist with that sort of implementation by chance instead of design. If we can come up with a useful strategy that has a reasonable chance of not breaking more than it fixes, then preview-latex will be the one that has to adapt. But just because preview-latex is an example where things will break does not mean that it is the only possible one. > If we can safely differentiate between links and non-links I think a > short click should follow the link (double-clicks typically don't > make sense there anyway) and a long click should set point Well, I happen to disagree, since following a link is the more time consuming action, anyway, and people might be tempted to press until the browser window appears. In any case, neither option is the behavior that a user would guess without being explicitly introduced to it. So we need to turn it off by default, or give an explanatory message of some kind by default. > Appended is a patch which uses get-text-property rather than > get-char-property to ignore overlay mouse-face properties. I firmly object to such a course. While we should not let ourselves be influenced too much by that, with XEmacs there is not even a distinction between overlays and text properties. The choice between the two when using Emacs should depend _exclusively_ on whether you need the association with the text or the buffer, and not on any chance side effects introduced to accidentally work with some package. >> And if you add to the equation the extra code and conceptual >> complexity of using timing-dependent information, I find it ends up >> a loser. > > I don't really want to add any message there -- if we leave the > feature disabled by default, the users who turn it on doesn't need > to be told how to get the alternative behaviour. > > If we turn on the feature by default, there should at least be some > way to disable that message. Sure. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum