From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta Subject: Re: Emacs setup assistants Date: 27 May 2004 10:50:21 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <1438-Thu20May2004203119+0300-eliz@gnu.org> <4nd64y29zc.fsf@lifelogs.com> <2719-Fri21May2004201241+0300-eliz@gnu.org> <4nn041u050.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4n1xl9kjab.fsf@lifelogs.com> <4n1xl89xto.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87smdocgn1.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <85lljgcdyh.fsf@servant.blindglobe.net> <20040525231939.GB26297@fencepost> <4n4qq3l1x6.fsf@lifelogs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1085647899 9624 80.91.224.253 (27 May 2004 08:51:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 08:51:39 +0000 (UTC) Cc: xemacs-beta@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Thu May 27 10:51:26 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BTGbm-0001PL-00 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 10:51:26 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BTGbl-0001cQ-00 for ; Thu, 27 May 2004 10:51:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BTGbP-0005dy-CH for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Thu, 27 May 2004 04:51:03 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.34) id 1BTGbJ-0005dc-8i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 27 May 2004 04:50:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.34) id 1BTGam-0005Zx-4l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 27 May 2004 04:50:55 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BTGal-0005Zp-HI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 27 May 2004 04:50:23 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lola.goethe.zz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BTGak-00045B-LH; Thu, 27 May 2004 04:50:23 -0400 Original-To: Ted Zlatanov In-Reply-To: <4n4qq3l1x6.fsf@lifelogs.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 Original-Lines: 43 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:24008 gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta:14865 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:24008 Ted Zlatanov writes: > On 26 May 2004, dak@gnu.org wrote: > > > I don't see how being forced artificially to keep a sequence will > > make things simpler. If you don't want the "complication" of > > being able to look ahead, you are not forced to do so. > > > > Personally, I find it rather a nuisance if some software forces a > > sequence unto me that basically forces me to completely start over > > if I made a mistake at the beginning somewhere. > > I am OK with such free navigation as long as it's optional and off > by default. What does "off by default" mean? Should we disable the cursor keys so that, unless you customize a secret obscure variable, you don't get a chance to amend your choices? > > I can live perfectly well without that sort of "simplicity". > > Well, yes, and you're unlikely to need assistants as well :) Think > about new Emacs users. I have seen plenty over the years, and I > speak from experience when I say that if they get assistants, free > navigation by default would be a disservice. It is not "by default". I am not suggesting that Emacs should press wildly upon the cursor keys, or that the user has to move from one item to another manually. > Simplicity in UI design is a feature, not a lack thereof. It is not simplicity if I have to start over from scratch if I had made a wrong choice. It is not simplicity if I am not allowed to see consequenes of what I am working with. Simplicity is served by having a natural sequence from start to end, not by punishing the user severely if he finds he made a mistake or wants to amend a choice he made earlier, necessitating temporarily not following the sequence. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum