From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Default Emacs keybindings (was: Re: Menu suggestion) Date: 27 Apr 2004 13:25:13 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <408CF39D.2000201@math.ku.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1083066929 7025 80.91.224.253 (27 Apr 2004 11:55:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:55:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Lars Hansen , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 27 13:55:21 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIRBJ-00065O-00 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:55:21 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIRBI-00058C-00 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 13:55:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BIQmF-0001QX-FL for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:29:27 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIQlt-0001P0-LK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:29:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BIQlL-0001JL-Q8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:29:02 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BIQiI-0000yW-IX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:25:22 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([127.0.0.1] helo=lola.goethe.zz) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1BIQgB-0000Bw-VB; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 07:23:12 -0400 Original-To: Thien-Thi Nguyen In-Reply-To: Original-Lines: 56 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3.50 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:22233 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:22233 Thien-Thi Nguyen writes: > David Kastrup writes: > > As long as the superuser can't with a good conscience throw > Emacs at his users, he is not free to use the editor he > prefers. > > because naked emacs may be seen as an unkindness in some cultures, > the crafty superuser throws instead an emacs wrapped in session-, > site-, or user-specific customizations. It is not only in a closed shop that my expertise is appreciated. For example, I am a frequent poster in comp.text.tex and other Usenet groups. I can start advice with "if you use Emacs, it is a matter of..." I can't start advice with "if you happen to have a service contract with me and I installed and maintain your copy of Emacs, you could..." It is the difference between "with Emacs, you could" and "with my Emacs, I can". The latter is gloating rather than helping. And I don't think we should strive for superuser lock-in: painful experiences whenever users switch between administrators. Emacs should by and large be delivered in a useful state for everyone without the need for serious reconfiguration. The better we can achieve that goal, the more universal Emacs experience becomes. > If somebody asks me about a text manipulation problem, and I tell > him "just use this one-liner in Emacs" and he says "Forget it. I > don't have a week to spare. How do I do this in KEdit?", this > ultimately forces me to acquire skills with inferior tools in > order to kludge along. > > or you could write the one-liner into a file, add five lines of > comment and/or docstring, and place the file in some shared > directory where it can be accessed in the future, and studied and > improved as time permits. this can be done by all users. They will still need to use Emacs. > The question "is it really worth it?" should, if possible, not > come up again and again. > > IMHO, that kind of question is always pertinent. the answer > may gradually shift from no to yes, as the environment (which > includes machines, regular users, and any superusers floating > in the vicinity) changes. if the answer does not shift and > the superusers floating in the vicinity do not effect change, > that says more about those superusers than the question. Superusers stand on the shoulders of developers. On the shoulder of giants, even dwarfs can look far. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum