From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ron Ross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.psgml.devel,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Re: Key sequence C-c C-f C-e uses invalid prefix characters Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:34:04 -0500 Sender: psgml-devel-admin@lists.sourceforge.net Message-ID: References: <3DFE4E98.1080204@silmaril.ie> <200212162248.gBGMm2m00520@rum.cs.yale.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1040200942 26695 80.91.224.249 (18 Dec 2002 08:42:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:42:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Peter Flynn , rms@gnu.org, lenst@lysator.liu.se, keichwa@gmx.net, no-spam@cua.dk, psgml-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, mvidner@suse.cz, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Pavel@Janik.cz, kevinr@ihs.com Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18OZmW-0006wQ-00 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:42:20 +0100 Original-Received: from lists.sourceforge.net ([66.35.250.206] helo=sc8-sf-list2.sourceforge.net) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18OZn4-0000Hb-00 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:42:54 +0100 Original-Received: from sc8-sf-list1-b.sourceforge.net ([10.3.1.13] helo=sc8-sf-list1.sourceforge.net) by sc8-sf-list2.sourceforge.net with esmtp (Exim 3.31-VA-mm2 #1 (Debian)) id 18OZmH-0007s8-00; Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:42:05 -0800 Original-Received: from tomts5.bellnexxia.net ([209.226.175.25] helo=tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net) by sc8-sf-list1.sourceforge.net with esmtp (Exim 3.31-VA-mm2 #1 (Debian)) id 18OSE7-0006zm-00 for ; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:38:19 -0800 Original-Received: from PEGASUS ([65.95.43.173]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20021217233329.RYKX7671.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@PEGASUS>; Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:33:29 -0500 Original-To: "Stefan Monnier" In-Reply-To: <200212162248.gBGMm2m00520@rum.cs.yale.edu> ("Stefan Monnier"'s message of "Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:48:02 -0500") Original-Lines: 52 Errors-To: psgml-devel-admin@lists.sourceforge.net X-BeenThere: psgml-devel@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9-sf.net Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: X-Original-Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 18:34:04 -0500 Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.psgml.devel:81 gmane.emacs.devel:10247 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:10247 "Stefan Monnier" writes: >> Richard Stallman wrote: >> > Dave Love wrote something earlier about including PSGML in the Emacs >> > distribution. I don't know the status of this. But it could either be >> > as a replacement of the current sgml-mode or in addition to it. >> >> Replacement. I've been advocating this ever since psgml reached stable >> *years* ago. sgml-mode alone is useless and vastly confusing for the >> beginner, as it precisely does *NOT* implement SGML editing, only the >> recognition of pointy brackets -- useful 15 years ago but not now! > > Last I heard (and that was before Dave's patches were incorporated), > PSGML did not deal well at all with the situation where the DTD is > unknown, which happens to be the standard case for me. This is > why I spent some time improving sgml-mode. > I believe that Dave's patches do bring PSGML to the point where it > is about as good as sgml-mode when editing text without DTD, so maybe > it is now good enough to replace sgml-mode. I must agree with Peter Flynn and question whether Emacs' default *sgml*-mode be one that functions /a priori/ without a DTD. It's almost a contradiction in terms. > >> Please. In perpetuating sgml-mode we are making the Emacs distro look >> very silly. > > Given the amount of complaint about PSGML "not indenting and not > highlighting" we have seen on gnu.emacs.help I'd say that the lack > of DTD-less support has been a problem for a long time now. > Yes, PSGML should be included in Emacs, and as soon as it truly > works as well (no matter how poor that is) as sgml-mode in > DTD-less settings, we can and should replace sgml-mode with PSGML. > > But the DTD-less setting is very important. The indentation and syntax-highlighting issue should really be distinguished from the DTD issue, which in turn covers the separate issues of working without a DTD and working with the new XML apparatus (schemas and namespaces) related to DTDs. DTD-less editing seems to me to be specific to a small subset of XML files. As long as we are considering a consolidation of markup language support in Emacs, perhaps psgml could become the default SGML/XML mode, and then another mode - whether derived from psgml or from the current sgml packages - could be made a available for DTD-less editing (something like "sgml/xml-lite"). The elisp namespace problem would then be solved by leaving psgml with the "sgml/xml"-prefixed symbols and then developing a new namespace for the qndml (quick-n-diry-ml-mode ;-). Ron ------------------------------------------------------- This sf.net email is sponsored by: With Great Power, Comes Great Responsibility Learn to use your power at OSDN's High Performance Computing Channel http://hpc.devchannel.org/