`i' missing in etc/refcard.tex (was: Any good stuff for emacs study ?)

`i' missing in etc/refcard.tex (was: Any good stuff for emacs study ?)

[Reiner Steib]

On Fri, May 12 2006, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
[ on help-gnu-emacs; directing this to emacs-devel ]

> And don't miss the huge resource that is the user manual.  While
> reading it in its entirety is not recommended, looking up subject via
> the `i' command is _the_ most efficient way of finding information
> about various Emacs features.

ACK.

I'm quite surprised that the Reference Card doesn't mention `i'.
Additionally, I'd suggest to write `s' instead of `M-s' for
`Info-search' in the reference card.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
--- refcard.tex	06 Feb 2006 13:12:46 +0100	1.13
+++ refcard.tex	02 May 2006 17:32:00 +0200	
@@ -598,8 +598,9 @@
 Other:
 
 \key{run Info {\bf tutorial}}{h}
+\key{look up a string in the index}{i}
+\key{search nodes for regexp}{s}
 \key{{\bf quit} Info}{q}
-\key{search nodes for regexp}{M-s}
 
 \endindentedkeys
 
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

If approved, I could make similar changes to de-refcard.tex and
fr-refcard.tex.  I doubt that I can fix cs-refcard.tex,
pl-refcard.tex, ru-refcard.tex and sk-refcard.tex, but I could contact
the translators.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex (was: Any good stuff for emacs study ?)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc>
> Cc: <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 14:53:22 +0200
> 
> I'm quite surprised that the Reference Card doesn't mention `i'.

It's worth adding, IMHO.

> +\key{look up a string in the index}{i}
                  ^^^^^^
I think "subject or phrase" is better than just "string".

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Reiner Steib]

On Fri, May 12 2006, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc>
>> 
>> I'm quite surprised that the Reference Card doesn't mention `i'.
>
> It's worth adding, IMHO.
>
>> +\key{look up a string in the index}{i}
>                   ^^^^^^
> I think "subject or phrase" is better than just "string".

Agreed.

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
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      (o o)
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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex (was: Any good stuff for emacs study ?)

[Richard Stallman]

    I'm quite surprised that the Reference Card doesn't mention `i'.

Is there room for it?
If you add it, does the refcard still format properly
in the intended number of pages?

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex (was: Any good stuff for emacs study ?)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> CC: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 00:52:59 -0400
> 
>     I'm quite surprised that the Reference Card doesn't mention `i'.
> 
> Is there room for it?
> If you add it, does the refcard still format properly
> in the intended number of pages?

If adding `i' causes the refcard to become overfull, I think we should
_replace_ the "\key{search nodes for regexp}{M-s}" entry with an entry
that describes the `i' command, since the latter is by far more
important than the former.

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Reiner Steib]

On Sat, May 13 2006, Richard Stallman wrote:

>     I'm quite surprised that the Reference Card doesn't mention `i'.
>
> Is there room for it?
> If you add it, does the refcard still format properly
> in the intended number of pages?

I couldn't run (la)tex on all translations [1], but one additional
line in that section would not create an additional page in any,
AFAICS.

Bye, Reiner.

[1] cs and sk failed
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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex (was: Any good stuff for emacs study ?)

[Richard Stallman]

    If adding `i' causes the refcard to become overfull, I think we should
    _replace_ the "\key{search nodes for regexp}{M-s}" entry with an entry
    that describes the `i' command, since the latter is by far more
    important than the former.

Maybe you are right.  However, it would be hard to change the translations
soon.  So let's leave this for later.

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Kevin Rodgers]

Richard Stallman wrote:
>     If adding `i' causes the refcard to become overfull, I think we should
>     _replace_ the "\key{search nodes for regexp}{M-s}" entry with an entry
>     that describes the `i' command, since the latter is by far more
>     important than the former.
> 
> Maybe you are right.  However, it would be hard to change the translations
> soon.  So let's leave this for later.

Hard?  There are only 6 translations of etc/refcard.tex (cs, de, fr, pl,
ru, and sk).  I submitted the following to 5 different online
translation services:

	I said, "Look up a subject in the indices."

and got the following results:

de (German)	Ich sagte, "schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes."
		Ich habe gesagt, "Aussehen auf ein Thema in den Indizes".
		Ich sagte, „schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes.“
		Ich sagte, "Schlagen Sie ein Thema in den Indizes Nach."
		Ich sagte, "schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes."

fr (French)	J'ai dit, "recherchez un sujet dans les index."
		J'ai dit, « le Regard en haut un sujet dans les index. »
		J'ai dit, « recherchez un sujet dans les index. »
		J'ai dit, "Cherchez un sujet dans l'indices."
		J'ai dit, "recherchez un sujet dans les index."

ru (Russian)	Я сказал, "посмотрите вверх вопрос в индексах."
		Я сказал, " Ищите предмет в индексах. "
		Я сказал, «посмотрите вверх вопрос в индексах.»
		Я сказал, "Ищите предмет в индексах."
		Я сказал, "посмотрите вверх вопрос в индексах."

Surely the native German, French, and Russian speakers on this list can
agree on the best translation.  That leaves just cs (Czech), pl 
(Polish), and sk (Slovak).

(I hoped that the direct quote and imperative voice would make it simple
to extract the relevant part of the translation.  Also, perhaps "topic"
would be better than "subject" and/or "index" better than "indices", but
the Info manual itself uses "subject" and "indices".)

-- 
Kevin

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[David Kastrup]

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Kevin Rodgers <ihs_4664@yahoo.com> writes:

> Richard Stallman wrote:
>>     If adding `i' causes the refcard to become overfull, I think we should
>>     _replace_ the "\key{search nodes for regexp}{M-s}" entry with an entry
>>     that describes the `i' command, since the latter is by far more
>>     important than the former.
>>
>> Maybe you are right.  However, it would be hard to change the translations
>> soon.  So let's leave this for later.
>
> Hard?  There are only 6 translations of etc/refcard.tex (cs, de, fr, pl,
> ru, and sk).  I submitted the following to 5 different online
> translation services:
>
> 	I said, "Look up a subject in the indices."
>
> and got the following results:
>
> de (German)	Ich sagte, "schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes."
> 		Ich habe gesagt, "Aussehen auf ein Thema in den Indizes".
> 		Ich sagte, „schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes.“
> 		Ich sagte, "Schlagen Sie ein Thema in den Indizes Nach."
> 		Ich sagte, "schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes."
>
> fr (French)	J'ai dit, "recherchez un sujet dans les index."
> 		J'ai dit, « le Regard en haut un sujet dans les index. »
> 		J'ai dit, « recherchez un sujet dans les index. »
> 		J'ai dit, "Cherchez un sujet dans l'indices."
> 		J'ai dit, "recherchez un sujet dans les index."
>
> ru (Russian)	Я сказал, "посмотрите вверх вопрос в индексах."
> 		Я сказал, " Ищите предмет в индексах. "
> 		Я сказал, «посмотрите вверх вопрос в индексах.»
> 		Я сказал, "Ищите предмет в индексах."
> 		Я сказал, "посмотрите вверх вопрос в индексах."
>
> Surely the native German, French, and Russian speakers on this list
> can agree on the best translation.

Can't speak for Russian, but for German and French certainly the
native speakers will agree that the above "translations" are
intolerable.

There is little sense in "agreeing" on a single sentence translation
when it is easy enough _giving_ such a sentence.

> That leaves just cs (Czech), pl (Polish), and sk (Slovak).
>
> (I hoped that the direct quote and imperative voice would make it
> simple to extract the relevant part of the translation.

That is assuming that the imperative voice would be the correct choice
for such a table.  Which would be wrong in most languages _including_
English AFAICT (it's just that in English many forms look the same).

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Reiner Steib]

On Mon, May 15 2006, Kevin Rodgers wrote:

> Richard Stallman wrote:
>>     If adding `i' causes the refcard to become overfull, I think we should
>>     _replace_ the "\key{search nodes for regexp}{M-s}" entry with an entry
>>     that describes the `i' command, since the latter is by far more
>>     important than the former.
>>
>> Maybe you are right.  However, it would be hard to change the translations
>> soon.  So let's leave this for later.
>
> Hard?  There are only 6 translations of etc/refcard.tex (cs, de, fr, pl,
> ru, and sk).  

Even if we can't translate all, we should install the others.  (I
already volunteered to contact the translators in my initial mail.)

> I submitted the following to 5 different online translation
> services: [...]

All of these German translation are all nonsense.  ;-)

> Surely the native German, French, and Russian speakers on this list
> can agree on the best translation.  That leaves just cs (Czech), pl
> (Polish), and sk (Slovak).

Here are suggestion for English, German and French if the plural
"indices" should be used:

--- refcard.tex	5 Feb 2006 23:44:47 -0000	1.13
+++ refcard.tex	15 May 2006 17:42:14 -0000
@@ -598,8 +598,9 @@
 Other:
 
 \key{run Info {\bf tutorial}}{h}
+\key{look up a subject in the indices}{i}
+\key{search nodes for regexp}{s}
 \key{{\bf quit} Info}{q}
-\key{search nodes for regexp}{M-s}
 
 \endindentedkeys
 
--- de-refcard.tex	5 Feb 2006 23:44:47 -0000	1.7
+++ de-refcard.tex	15 May 2006 17:42:13 -0000
@@ -563,9 +563,9 @@
 Sonstige:
 
 \key{Info {\bf Tutorial} starten}{h}
-\key{Info Befehle zeigen}{?}
+\key{Begriff in den Indices suchen}{i}
+\key{Knoten nach reg. Ausd. durchsuchen}{s}
 \key{Info {\bf verlassen} }{q}
-\key{Knoten nach reg. Ausd. durchsuchen}{M-s}
 
 \endindentedkeys
 
--- fr-refcard.tex	5 Feb 2006 23:44:47 -0000	1.11
+++ fr-refcard.tex	15 May 2006 17:42:13 -0000
@@ -588,8 +588,9 @@
 Autres :
 
 \key{lancer le {\bf didacticiel} Info}{h}
+\key{recherchez un sujet dans les index}{i}
+\key{rechercher les n\oe{}uds avec une expression rationnelle}{s}
 \key{{\bf quitter} Info}{q}
-\key{rechercher les n\oe{}uds avec une expression rationnelle}{M-s}
 
 \endindentedkeys

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Michaël Cadilhac]

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Reiner Steib <reinersteib+gmane@imap.cc> writes:

> Here are suggestion for English, German and French if the plural
> "indices" should be used:
> [...]
> --- fr-refcard.tex	5 Feb 2006 23:44:47 -0000	1.11
> +++ fr-refcard.tex	15 May 2006 17:42:13 -0000
> @@ -588,8 +588,9 @@
>  Autres :
>
>  \key{lancer le {\bf didacticiel} Info}{h}
> +\key{recherchez un sujet dans les index}{i}

  « recherche*r* un sujet dans les index*es* ». But I don't see why
  the plural is used here, I'd rather write:
  « rechercher un sujet dans l'index ».

> +\key{rechercher les n\oe{}uds avec une expression rationnelle}{s}
>  \key{{\bf quitter} Info}{q}
> -\key{rechercher les n\oe{}uds avec une expression rationnelle}{M-s}
>
>  \endindentedkeys

   Regards,

-- 
 |      Michaël `Micha' Cadilhac   |   Pour les 35-40 ans, l'humour         |
 |         Epita/LRDE Promo 2007   |        c'est une plus-value.           |
 | http://www.lrde.org/~cadilh_m   |           -- Guillaume L.              |
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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Stefan Monnier]

>   « recherche*r* un sujet dans les index*es* ». But I don't see why
>   the plural is used here, I'd rather write:
>   « rechercher un sujet dans l'index ».

I'd just say "chercher dans l'index"


        Stefan

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Michaël Cadilhac]

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Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>   « recherche*r* un sujet dans les index*es* ». But I don't see why
                                      (My bad, it's « index »)

>>   the plural is used here, I'd rather write:
>>   « rechercher un sujet dans l'index ».
>
> I'd just say "chercher dans l'index"

  The shorter, the simpler, the better :-)

  However, if it's a « recherche », you'd say « *re*chercher dans
  l'index »

-- 
 |      Michaël `Micha' Cadilhac   |   Pour les 35-40 ans, l'humour         |
 |         Epita/LRDE Promo 2007   |        c'est une plus-value.           |
 | http://www.lrde.org/~cadilh_m   |           -- Guillaume L.              |
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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Werner LEMBERG]

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> 	I said, "Look up a subject in the indices."
> 
> and got the following results:
> 
> de (German)	Ich sagte, "schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes."
> 		Ich habe gesagt, "Aussehen auf ein Thema in den Indizes".
> 		Ich sagte, „schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes.“
> 		Ich sagte, "Schlagen Sie ein Thema in den Indizes Nach."
> 		Ich sagte, "schauen Sie oben ein Thema in den Indizes."

None of the German translation is really good.  I suggest:

  suche Index-Eintrag


    Werner

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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Reiner Steib]

On Mon, May 15 2006, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>>   « recherche*r* un sujet dans les index*es* ». But I don't see why
>>   the plural is used here, I'd rather write:
>>   « rechercher un sujet dans l'index ».
>
> I'd just say "chercher dans l'index"

My intend was to keep it similar to the `M-s'/`s' (Info-search) entry
(but I forgot to s/recherchez/recherches/).  But that isn't necessary,
or we could shorten both lines.

Anyhow, my French is quite rusty, so it's up to the native speakers...

Bye, Reiner.
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      (o o)
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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:51:33 +0200
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Can't speak for Russian, but for German and French certainly the
> native speakers will agree that the above "translations" are
> intolerable.

Russian translations are similarly awful.

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> « recherche*r* un sujet dans les index*es* ». But I don't see why
>                                       (My bad, it's « index »)
>>> the plural is used here, I'd rather write:
>>> « rechercher un sujet dans l'index ».
>> I'd just say "chercher dans l'index"
>   The shorter, the simpler, the better :-)

Well, not sure.

>   However, if it's a « recherche », you'd say « *re*chercher dans
>   l'index »

No.


        Stefan

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Slawomir Nowaczyk]

On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:14:51 -0600
Kevin Rodgers <ihs_4664@yahoo.com> wrote:

#> 	I said, "Look up a subject in the indices."
#> <snip>
#> Surely the native German, French, and Russian speakers on this list
#> can agree on the best translation. That leaves just cs (Czech), pl
#> (Polish), and sk (Slovak).

In Polish, it would probably be: "wyszukaj zagadnienie w indeksach"

-- 
 Best wishes,
   Slawomir Nowaczyk
     ( slawomir.nowaczyk.847@student.lu.se )

Real programmers can write assembly code in any language.

Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Reiner Steib]

On Sat, May 13 2006, Richard Stallman wrote:

>     If adding `i' causes the refcard to become overfull, I think we should
>     _replace_ the "\key{search nodes for regexp}{M-s}" entry with an entry
>     that describes the `i' command, since the latter is by far more
>     important than the former.
>
> Maybe you are right.  However, it would be hard to change the translations
> soon.  So let's leave this for later.

We already have translations for de, fr, pl and Eli can provide ru
(CMIIW).  For the missing translations (cs, pt-br and sk) I'd suggest
to add:
% \key{look up a subject in the indices}{i} % FIXME

As you want to ask maintainers of refcard translations to update them
independent from this suggestion, I think it we should add `i' now.
May I install?

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
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Re: `i' missing in etc/refcard.tex

[Richard Stallman]

    As you want to ask maintainers of refcard translations to update them
    independent from this suggestion, I think it we should add `i' now.
    May I install?

Ok, if you contact the maintainers of the other translations
and verify that they update these translations soon.