From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Reiner Steib Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Getting more info on a variable in Customize buffers Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:25:07 +0100 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: Reiner Steib NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1104697562 30006 80.91.229.6 (2 Jan 2005 20:26:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 20:26:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 02 21:25:50 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ClCIP-0006hE-00 for ; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 21:25:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1ClCTW-00027z-R9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 15:37:18 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1ClCTM-00026f-FV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 15:37:08 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1ClCTL-00026S-Sj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 15:37:08 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1ClCTL-00026P-P1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 15:37:07 -0500 Original-Received: from [134.60.1.1] (helo=mail-new.rz.uni-ulm.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.34) id 1ClCHq-0001z7-Nz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 15:25:15 -0500 Original-Received: from bridgekeeper.physik.uni-ulm.de (bridgekeeper.physik.uni-ulm.de [134.60.10.123]) by mail.uni-ulm.de (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j02KP7UU022615; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:25:07 +0100 (MET) Original-Received: by bridgekeeper.physik.uni-ulm.de (Postfix, from userid 170) id B48031C17D; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 21:25:07 +0100 (CET) Mail-Followup-To: "Drew Adams" , Original-To: "Drew Adams" X-Face: .*T0'iU(sujq_j9\J>-d4fg; N/1++U#U$_5ii6k.=|"-n'?5O:Hyz&wi'-!I~,}7~GgT=0S /&-R5sbkNy5+Xo1y{Tw2KKxi@Xh"g@]Qc|.U<*]WDd)qvGowFDvfU1F]{EDho:7P0@|oOD=Bc{K4?> WP68K[Mx:}=`ZT'6g4'f+g?;`vri2!)xGy}3:=l'(/Cea0l4lo^H5#@/Z3ev User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-DCC-sonic.net-Metrics: gemini 1156; Body=2 Fuz1=2 Fuz2=2 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:31698 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:31698 On Sun, Jan 02 2005, Drew Adams wrote: > 1) If I click Customize in the *Help* buffer from `C-h v', I arrive at a > Customize buffer for only that variable, where there is no link to the > custom group of the variable, so I can't see how it might be related to > other variables in the group. I get "Parent groups: [ediff-hook]". There might be some variables where the custom group declaration is missing. Kim F. Storm pointed this out for several Gnus variables in article . > 2) If I somehow get to the Customize group (ediff-hook) to customize the > same variable, without coming from the `C-h v' *Help* buffer: > > 2a) The variable name does not appear as such. Instead, the name is > prettified using title-case and replacing dashes with spaces. A variable > with a mixed-case name like `Info-enable-edit' is indistiguishable in this > format from one that is all lowercase. There is nothing that indicates to a > user what the real name of the variable is and that the displayed name is a > transformation of the real name. Especially for TeX mode vs. AUCTeX variables this behavior is irritating: `tex-offer-save' vs. `TeX-offer-save', ... > For me, it would be more useful to show the real variable name than the > title-case headline-style pretty name. ,----[ C-h v custom-unlispify-tag-names RET ] | custom-unlispify-tag-names's value is nil | | Display tag names as words instead of symbols if non nil. | | You can customize this variable. `---- > 2b) There is no link to the source code that defines the variable. You need > to derive the real variable name from the pretty name and type that into > `C-h v', just to get a link to the source code. Getting to the definition of > a variable or function is one of the great strengths of Emacs over other > programs. Yes, a button "Defined in `foo-bar'" next to "Parent groups" would be useful. > Doc strings are great, but they don't always substitute for looking > at the real definitions. In Emacs, there is a progression from doc > to code, and the two reinforce each other. Lack of a link to the > defining code is an obstacle to that reinforcement. > > 2c) The variable value does not appear in its Lisp form. In some cases, it > is possible to see the Lisp form, but in other cases it cannot be seen. Isn't [State] / [Show initial Lisp expression] present for all variables? > So, I suggest: > > - To the Customize buffer for a group containing a variable, we add: > 1) the real variable name, in such a way that it can be copied > for pasting and searching and picked up by variable-at-point How about a button that toggles `custom-unlispify-tag-names' and re-displays the buffer? > 2) a link to the variable definition in the source code ACK. > 3) a button to display the Lisp value of the variable (Hide/ > Show/Show Lisp would do the trick). See above. > 4) perhaps a link to the variable's explanation in Info > (when appropriate) If the variable definition has a custom-manual entry like... :link '(custom-manual "(message)Mail Headers") ... you'll get a button "See also [Manual]." in the customize buffer. See e.g. `message-ignored-mail-headers' and most other customizable variables from `message.el'. > Alternatively, we could eliminate the Customize buffer for an individual > variable altogether. Clicking the Customize link in *Help* would instead > take you to the correct entry in the Customize group buffer. A variable may belong to two or more custom groups. Bye, Reiner. -- ,,, (o o) ---ooO-(_)-Ooo--- | PGP key available | http://rsteib.home.pages.de/