From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Daschek Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Default Emacs keybindings Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 01:59:17 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1083112990 27435 80.91.224.253 (28 Apr 2004 00:43:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 00:43:10 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 28 02:43:02 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIdAE-0005gx-00 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:43:02 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BIdAE-0001Gt-00 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:43:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BIdA8-00056u-Si for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:42:56 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BId9u-00056D-KG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:42:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BId9M-0004vd-Rk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:42:40 -0400 Original-Received: from [80.91.224.249] (helo=main.gmane.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BId9M-0004uA-7I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2004 20:42:08 -0400 Original-Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BId9I-00018K-00 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:42:04 +0200 Original-Received: from net1.treangeli.at ([217.19.37.143]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:42:04 +0200 Original-Received: from noniq-usenet by net1.treangeli.at with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:42:04 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-Lines: 70 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: net1.treangeli.at User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) Emacs/21.3.50 (windows-nt) Cancel-Lock: sha1:R/gpjfkfrtHjLaoAiTguJk+JWNo= X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:22275 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:22275 storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes: > Could we have some comments from users of CUA, please! I use CUA, however ... my .emacs contains (setq cua-enable-cua-keys nil). That's because I've been using S-Del, C-Ins and S-Ins for cut, copy, and paste respectively since the old days of Borland C++ 3.1 running under MS DOS 5. Since those days I'm used to selecting text by holding the shift key and then using the cursor keys (interestingly enough even my current mobile phone, a nokia 7650, uses this convention - holding down a modifier key and moving the cursor - for selecting text). Those shortcuts still work in (almost) all applications under Windows or KDE/Gnome, in my favourite terminal emulator (PuTTY) they are even the only way to do copy&paste from the keyboard. Of course there is a drawback: S-Del, C-Ins, and S-Ins, as well as shifted cursor movement do not work in emacs -nw. That's why I find myself constantly using Tramp for editing remote files. I do use Emacs remotely over ssh, but only for quite simple editing tasks. As far as "learning emacs" is concerned: When I started using Emacs, among the first things I did was enabling pc-selection-mode, finding out about CUA, and defining a bunch of keybindings that are common under standard Windows applications (e.g. C-s for save-buffer, M-F4 for save-buffers-kill-emacs, etc.). I did that not because I wanted Emacs to be like any other Windows application, but just to make it possible for me to learn Emacs gradually. After all, I had to get my work done, and as I had decided that the only way of really learning Emacs is to really use it, I had to get my work done with Emacs. Even with all the customizations I did the first weeks of using Emacs were quite hard and sometimes frustrating for me, many things did not work as I expected and I felt less productive than before. But as time went by I gradually learned about "The Emacs Way of doing it" and so I got rid of many of those "backward-compatibility" customizations -- not all at once, but bit by bit -- and started using all those great unique features of Emacs. Nowadays I sometimes find myself pressing C-x C-s to save a document in Powerpoint or Excel ... :) My point is: I think it's neither possible nor sensible to learn Emacs from scratch if you have already some experience with other "standard" applications (and nowadays it could be quite hard to find someone who hasn't this experiences). In Emacs' default configuration almost nothing works as one would expect it, and so the possibility of getting frustrated and never have a look at Emacs again is quite high. However, what does work quite well is to start using Emacs almost like a standard Windows/Gnome/KDE/MacOS application and then gradually learn about the powerful Emacs features. I think Emacs should encourage new users willing to learn Emacs as much as possible. Maybe it would be a good idea to implement something like a "First-time-user's wizard"? This wizard could guide a new user through several basic (but important) steps of customizing. For example, it could ask the user something like "Enable C-x/C-c/C-v shortcuts for copy&paste?" Together with this question Emacs should display a short explanation that (and how) enabling this option will interfere with the standard Emacs keybindings and how to turn it off again etc. I'm not sure about what other questions this "wizard" should ask, maybe it would be necessary to make a survey among Emacs-"newbies" to find out. Okay enough for now, any comments appreciated :) ciao, noniq