From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs setup assistants Date: 20 May 2004 15:44:19 +0200 Sender: xemacs-beta-admin@xemacs.org Message-ID: References: <87zn847n6a.fsf@mail.jurta.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1085062691 7143 80.91.224.253 (20 May 2004 14:18:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 14:18:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: juri@jurta.org, xemacs-beta@xemacs.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: xemacs-beta-admin@xemacs.org Thu May 20 16:18:01 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BQoMy-0005p3-00 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 16:18:00 +0200 Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org ([199.184.165.135]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BQoMv-0007e6-00 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 16:18:00 +0200 Original-Received: from gwyn.tux.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.11.6p2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i4KEDBs12495; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:13:11 -0400 Original-Received: (from turnbull@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.11.6p2/8.9.1) id i4KECAE11776 for xemacs-beta-mailman@xemacs.org; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:12:10 -0400 Original-Received: (from mail@localhost) by gwyn.tux.org (8.11.6p2/8.9.1) id i4KEC9U11755 for turnbull@tux.org; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:12:09 -0400 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org (monty-python.gnu.org [199.232.76.173]) by gwyn.tux.org (8.11.6p2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id i4KEC7s11733 for ; Thu, 20 May 2004 10:12:08 -0400 Original-Received: from [207.232.27.5] (helo=WST0054) by monty-python.gnu.org with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BQmsN-0005gP-88; Thu, 20 May 2004 08:42:19 -0400 Original-To: David Kastrup In-reply-to: (message from David Kastrup on 20 May 2004 12:57:11 +0200) X-XEmacs-List: beta Errors-To: xemacs-beta-admin@xemacs.org X-BeenThere: xemacs-beta@xemacs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: XEmacs Beta Testers List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta:14771 gmane.emacs.devel:23785 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:23785 > From: David Kastrup > Date: 20 May 2004 12:57:11 +0200 > > > A tool such as the one being discussed needs mostly small chinks of > > plain text interspersed with hyperlinks, something for which > > Customize (and indeed even Help functions) already have the > > necessary infrastructure, or at least large parts of it. > > Small? No. An assistant has to _explain_ things, and the ways in > which they are related. In my experience, long explanations are never read. People nowadays seem to have no patience for that. That's why tutorials for setting up software are out and FAQs are in. > Isolated customization strings don't do that. I didn't say isolated strings. Writing a 10-sentence explanation for a specific aspect of something doesn't require something as elaborate as Texinfo. > You don't get a coherent explanation and layout of what to do in what > order and what influences what. You get a twisty little maze of > crosslinks with pieces of information scattered around, and the > coherent ideas of the design having no place to be sitting. The, IMHO, challenge is to organize those pieces of information in a way that in every specific case we only display the text that explains what the user currently cares about. For example, when I need to set up a port for some service, I don't want to hear a lecture about TCP/IP and ports in general, just clear and practical suggestions for coming up with the port number for that specific service. > That's not what an assistant is supposed to do: an assistant is > concerned with setting up a package, not with customizing a single > variable once you have found out that you might want to customize > _that_ variable. Again, the challenge IMHO is to break a complex issue into a sequence of well-defined short help messages, and a framework that guides the user thru that sequence. No one will ever read a 10-page explanation just to set up a package (well, perhaps except you and me).