From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Oliver Scholz Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: enriched-mode and switching major modes. Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:37:17 +0200 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <200409042358.i84Nwjt19152@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <87llfn5ihw.fsf@emacswiki.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1095709084 28082 80.91.229.6 (20 Sep 2004 19:38:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:38:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: bob@rattlesnake.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 20 21:37:53 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1C9Tyy-0002sc-00 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:37:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9U4r-0003p7-Pe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:43:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9U4f-0003mi-Oz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:43:45 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.33) id 1C9U4e-0003ko-7p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:43:45 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.33) id 1C9U4e-0003kU-0D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:43:44 -0400 Original-Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1C9TyS-00070D-IT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 15:37:20 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 21324 invoked by uid 65534); 20 Sep 2004 19:37:19 -0000 Original-Received: from dsl-082-083-129-246.arcor-ip.net (EHLO USER-2MOEN8BWBA.gmx.de) (82.83.129.246) by mail.gmx.net (mp008) with SMTP; 20 Sep 2004 21:37:19 +0200 X-Authenticated: #1497658 Original-To: Stefan Monnier In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:55:37 -0400") X-Attribution: os X-Face: "HgH2sgK|bfH$; PiOJI6|qUCf.ve<51_Od(%ynHr?=>znn#~#oS>",F%B8&\vus),2AsPYb -n>PgddtGEn}s7kH?7kH{P_~vu?]OvVN^qD(L)>G^gDCl(U9n{:d>'DkilN!_K"eNzjrtI4Ya6; Td% IZGMbJ{lawG+'J>QXPZD&TwWU@^~A}f^zAb[Ru;CT(UA]c& User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) Emacs/21.3.50 (windows-nt) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:27341 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:27341 Stefan Monnier writes: >> It is basically as you said: you express your intents. But rather >> than doing this via a command or markup language, you do it by >> interacting with a UI. > > It's a false dichotomy: Emacs on a tty is a UI. > I guess what you mean to say here is that rather than representing the > intent as text you'd represent it somehow graphically. This is nitpicking. By UI I meant to say that you issue a command M-x set-the-type-of-this-paragraph. Or hit `C-u 4 C-c C-i' (indent-this-paragraph). Or click on the "Make this italic" button in the tool bar. Or whatever. Since things like this can be---and in fact are---provided by modes for editing your "deep representation", you might say that the difference is that this is the /only/ way to express your intent. The point is that you express your intent while not caring about the particular encoding. [...] >> This abstracts your intent from a specific file format ("deep >> representation"). > > So you don't actually get to see the abstract representation, even though > that's really what you're editing. I.e. you're still editing somewhat > blind-folded. "somewhat blind-folded" is a vast exaggeration. > You're trying to strike a balance between WYSIWYG and plain text. I can not parse that sentence. It makes absolutely no sense to me. >> The benefit is that you do this while looking at the "surface >> expression". > > With something like WhyzzyTeX I get to edit while seeing (rather than > "looking at") the surface expression. I think I already understood that you like this way of editing. Now, it seems that I also have to understand that in your view this is the Only True Way of Editing. Do you really think, that /I/ or anybody else who wants "word processing" in Emacs would be content with WhyzzyTeX-style functionality? A gedankenexperiment: Suppose we have the inverse of WhizzyTeX: you edit the visual appearance WP-style and Emacs would constantly update the encoded document in a read-only buffer and show it in another window. Would /you/ be content with that? Well, /I/ would like it, though I'd probably hit C-x 1. O.k. more precise rephrasing: the benefit is that all editing actions take place in a buffer that only shows the "surface expression". Oliver -- Oliver Scholz Jour des Récompenses de l'Année 212 de la Révolution Ostendstr. 61 Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité! 60314 Frankfurt a. M.