* How to change line endings - where is it explained? @ 2006-05-08 22:45 Lennart Borgman 2006-05-09 3:45 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-08 22:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Is it explained in the manuals how to change line endings? I can not find it (neither for the lisp level or user level), but that is maybe just me. I had to look up the function mode-line-change-eol to find out how. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-08 22:45 How to change line endings - where is it explained? Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-09 3:45 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-09 5:48 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-09 5:51 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-09 3:45 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 00:45:52 +0200 > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> > > Is it explained in the manuals how to change line endings? I can not > find it Yes, it is described in the node "Text and Binray". What did you try to look for it? Perhaps we need to improve the indexing. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-09 3:45 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-09 5:48 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-12 17:57 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-09 5:51 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-09 5:48 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 00:45:52 +0200 >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> >> >> Is it explained in the manuals how to change line endings? I can not >> find it >> > > Yes, it is described in the node "Text and Binray". > > What did you try to look for it? Perhaps we need to improve the > indexing. > Thanks, yes I wonder why I missed that. A couple of small things perhaps: - The name of the node is a bit "C style". - I looked for "line endings". - I looked for "line end conversion". - I actually also searched for CRLF, but possibly only in the elisp manual since I wanted to do the conversion in code. - I was thinking about coding systems, but somehow I missed that you could use just 'unix or 'dos for the coding system in some operations. - I looked at the node "(emacs) Files" which says it tells everything about files. - I looked at `buffer-file-coding-system' etc. I think that I have some difficulties with English here. I however also think that the essence of the topic is a bit absent in the manuals. It is very an important topic if you are on w32 but not that important if all you care about is unix-style platforms. Some suggestions: - A link to "(emacs) Coding Systems" in "(emacs) Files". - Something about line endings too in "(emacs) Files", possibly in connection with the link above. - "(emacs) Coding Systems" should mention 'dos, 'unix and 'mac. - "(elisp) Files" should mention line endings. - `describe-coding-system' could somehow mention line endings. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-09 5:48 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-12 17:57 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-14 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-12 17:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 07:48:43 +0200 > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > Yes, it is described in the node "Text and Binray". > > > > What did you try to look for it? Perhaps we need to improve the > > indexing. > > > Thanks, yes I wonder why I missed that. A couple of small things perhaps: > > - The name of the node is a bit "C style". > - I looked for "line endings". > - I looked for "line end conversion". > - I actually also searched for CRLF, but possibly only in the elisp > manual since I wanted to do the conversion in code. > - I was thinking about coding systems, but somehow I missed that you > could use just 'unix or 'dos for the coding system in some operations. > - I looked at the node "(emacs) Files" which says it tells everything > about files. > - I looked at `buffer-file-coding-system' etc. I added some index entries that should make this search easier. > Some suggestions: > > - A link to "(emacs) Coding Systems" in "(emacs) Files". There is already such a link: see the node "Visiting". > - Something about line endings too in "(emacs) Files", possibly in > connection with the link above. Ditto: "Visiting" already talks about EOLs. > - "(emacs) Coding Systems" should mention 'dos, 'unix and 'mac. It already does, please take a closer look. > - "(elisp) Files" should mention line endings. I added the references to code and EOL conversions to the appropriate sections of files.texi. > - `describe-coding-system' could somehow mention line endings. Done. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-12 17:57 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-14 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-14 20:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-14 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 07:48:43 +0200 >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> >> CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> >>> Yes, it is described in the node "Text and Binray". >>> >>> What did you try to look for it? Perhaps we need to improve the >>> indexing. >>> >>> >> Thanks, yes I wonder why I missed that. A couple of small things perhaps: >> >> - The name of the node is a bit "C style". >> - I looked for "line endings". >> - I looked for "line end conversion". >> - I actually also searched for CRLF, but possibly only in the elisp >> manual since I wanted to do the conversion in code. >> - I was thinking about coding systems, but somehow I missed that you >> could use just 'unix or 'dos for the coding system in some operations. >> - I looked at the node "(emacs) Files" which says it tells everything >> about files. >> - I looked at `buffer-file-coding-system' etc. >> > > I added some index entries that should make this search easier. > Thanks for the index entries and for adding CRLF in a relevant place in the elisp manual. > >> - Something about line endings too in "(emacs) Files", possibly in >> connection with the link above. >> > > Ditto: "Visiting" already talks about EOLs. > Oh, I found it! But I did not see it before. The reason is that I am nearly always searching, not reading. In "(emacs) Visiting" the term for line endings is "convention it uses to separate lines". Could perhaps "(line endings)" be added right after this? : convention it uses to separate lines (line endings) -- newline (used on ... > >> - "(emacs) Coding Systems" should mention 'dos, 'unix and 'mac. >> > > It already does, please take a closer look. > I just checked out a fresh copy from CVS and I am afraid I still can not find anything about the use of just 'dos, 'unix and 'mac like in M-x set-buffer-file-coding-system RET unix RET As I understand it this changes just the line endings to unix style (LF). Would it not be good to mention this feature? > >> - "(elisp) Files" should mention line endings. >> > > I added the references to code and EOL conversions to the appropriate > sections of files.texi. > Thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-14 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-14 20:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-14 21:00 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-14 20:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 22:17:44 +0200 > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > >> - Something about line endings too in "(emacs) Files", possibly in > >> connection with the link above. > > > > Ditto: "Visiting" already talks about EOLs. > > > Oh, I found it! But I did not see it before. The reason is that I am > nearly always searching, not reading. That is almost certainly not the right way to use the manual. Searching is a vehicle of getting to the right node, but once you are already there, you should read it in its entirety. > In "(emacs) Visiting" the term for > line endings is "convention it uses to separate lines". Could perhaps > "(line endings)" be added right after this? : I actually dislike the term "line endings"; "end-of-line format" is a better term, IMO. > >> - "(emacs) Coding Systems" should mention 'dos, 'unix and 'mac. > > > > It already does, please take a closer look. > > > I just checked out a fresh copy from CVS and I am afraid I still can not > find anything about the use of just 'dos, 'unix and 'mac ??? How can that be? Are we talking about the same thing here? Here's the fragment I had in mind: Each of the listed coding systems has three variants which specify exactly what to do for end-of-line conversion: `...-unix' Don't do any end-of-line conversion; assume the file uses newline to separate lines. (This is the convention normally used on Unix and GNU systems.) `...-dos' Assume the file uses carriage-return linefeed to separate lines, and do the appropriate conversion. (This is the convention normally used on Microsoft systems.(2)) `...-mac' Assume the file uses carriage-return to separate lines, and do the appropriate conversion. (This is the convention normally used on the Macintosh system.) These variant coding systems are omitted from the `list-coding-systems' display for brevity, since they are entirely predictable. For example, the coding system `iso-latin-1' has variants `iso-latin-1-unix', `iso-latin-1-dos' and `iso-latin-1-mac'. > like in > > M-x set-buffer-file-coding-system RET unix RET > > As I understand it this changes just the line endings to unix style > (LF). Would it not be good to mention this feature? Ah, you mean this paragraph (from "Text Coding"): You can also use this command to specify the end-of-line conversion (*note end-of-line conversion: Coding Systems.) for encoding the current buffer. For example, `C-x <RET> f dos <RET>' will cause Emacs to save the current buffer's text with DOS-style CRLF line endings. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-14 20:29 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-14 21:00 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-15 3:14 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-14 21:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Oh, I found it! But I did not see it before. The reason is that I am >> nearly always searching, not reading. >> > > That is almost certainly not the right way to use the manual. > Searching is a vehicle of getting to the right node, but once you are > already there, you should read it in its entirety. > Maybe it is a little bit a matter of cognitive style? It is really hard to organize a big text like Emacs manual and I tend to think that maybe I am not in the right node and then I continue searching. Sometimes this is the best approach I believe and sometimes not. This time it was certainly not the best strategy I was using, you are right in that. It might well be that most people doing some programming tend to have a cognitive style that is more consistent with the reading style you suggest. > I actually dislike the term "line endings"; "end-of-line format" is a > better term, IMO. > If you dislike that term I suppose that there are more native English speaking people that does that. But there is one drawback with the term "end-of-line format" and that is that there is a function with that name. It makes searching a little bit harder, perhaps. However I would be glad if one term was use consistently in the manual. That makes my way of reading the manual (=searching) quite a bit more easy. > ??? How can that be? Are we talking about the same thing here? > Here's the fragment I had in mind: > > Each of the listed coding systems has three variants which specify > exactly what to do for end-of-line conversion: > > `...-unix' > Don't do any end-of-line conversion; assume the file uses newline > to separate lines. (This is the convention normally used on Unix > and GNU systems.) > ... >> like in >> >> M-x set-buffer-file-coding-system RET unix RET >> >> As I understand it this changes just the line endings to unix style >> (LF). Would it not be good to mention this feature? >> > > Ah, you mean this paragraph (from "Text Coding"): > > You can also use this command to specify the end-of-line conversion > (*note end-of-line conversion: Coding Systems.) for encoding the > current buffer. For example, `C-x <RET> f dos <RET>' will cause Emacs > to save the current buffer's text with DOS-style CRLF line endings. > Yes, that is more in line with what I was searching for. And looked for in the node "(emacs) Coding Systems". To summarize: What I would have found most useful would have been one consistent term for "line endings"/"end-of-line conversions"/"end-of-line type" since this makes searching easier. Thanks for taking time with this. It cleared my thoughts a bit. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-14 21:00 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-15 3:14 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-15 20:37 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-15 3:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 23:00:53 +0200 > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Maybe it is a little bit a matter of cognitive style? It is really hard > to organize a big text like Emacs manual Nodes are not large. If you see relevant text in the node, I suggest you read it carefully. > and I tend to think that maybe I am not in the right node and then I > continue searching. Well, you now see the drawback of that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-15 3:14 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-15 20:37 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-05-15 20:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lennart.borgman.073, emacs-devel Nodes are not large. If you see relevant text in the node, I suggest you read it carefully. Some nodes are too large--it is useful to notice them and split them. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-09 3:45 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-09 5:48 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-09 5:51 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-09 19:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-09 5:51 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 00:45:52 +0200 >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> >> >> Is it explained in the manuals how to change line endings? I can not >> find it >> > > Yes, it is described in the node "Text and Binray". > > What did you try to look for it? Perhaps we need to improve the > indexing. > Forgot to say that the elisp manual also should say something about how to find out the line endings currently used. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-09 5:51 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-09 19:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-09 19:41 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-09 19:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 07:51:19 +0200 > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Forgot to say that the elisp manual also should say something about how > to find out the line endings currently used. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. In particular, what is the exact meaning of ``currently used''. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-09 19:35 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-09 19:41 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-09 22:04 ` Luc Teirlinck 2006-05-10 3:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-09 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 07:51:19 +0200 >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> >> CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> Forgot to say that the elisp manual also should say something about how >> to find out the line endings currently used. >> > > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. In particular, what > is the exact meaning of ``currently used''. > I was thinking about the line endings that will be used when writing the buffer (with just C-x C-s for example). But I might misunderstand something here? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-09 19:41 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-09 22:04 ` Luc Teirlinck 2006-05-10 3:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Luc Teirlinck @ 2006-05-09 22:04 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: eliz, emacs-devel Lennart Borgman wrote: I was thinking about the line endings that will be used when writing the buffer (with just C-x C-s for example). But I might misunderstand something here? I have not been following this thread, so I may be the one misunderstanding something, but what about `(elisp)MS-DOS File' or other sections of `(elisp)Coding Systems'? Sincerely, Luc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-09 19:41 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-09 22:04 ` Luc Teirlinck @ 2006-05-10 3:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-10 5:49 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-10 3:36 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 21:41:20 +0200 > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > I was thinking about the line endings that will be used when writing the > buffer (with just C-x C-s for example). You mean the current buffer's coding-system (a.k.a. buffer-file-coding-system). In that case, is coding-system-eol-type what you'd like to be added to the Lisp manual? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-10 3:36 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-10 5:49 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-11 3:44 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-10 5:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 21:41:20 +0200 >> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> I was thinking about the line endings that will be used when writing the >> buffer (with just C-x C-s for example). >> > > You mean the current buffer's coding-system > (a.k.a. buffer-file-coding-system). > > In that case, is coding-system-eol-type what you'd like to be added to > the Lisp manual? > Yes. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-10 5:49 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2006-05-11 3:44 ` Richard Stallman 2006-05-11 18:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-12 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2006-05-11 3:44 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: eliz, emacs-devel > In that case, is coding-system-eol-type what you'd like to be added to > the Lisp manual? Eli, could you add that? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-11 3:44 ` Richard Stallman @ 2006-05-11 18:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-12 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-11 18:29 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lennart.borgman.073, emacs-devel > From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> > CC: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:44:57 -0400 > > > In that case, is coding-system-eol-type what you'd like to be added to > > the Lisp manual? > > Eli, could you add that? Okay. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: How to change line endings - where is it explained? 2006-05-11 3:44 ` Richard Stallman 2006-05-11 18:29 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-12 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2006-05-12 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: lennart.borgman.073, emacs-devel > From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> > CC: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 23:44:57 -0400 > > > In that case, is coding-system-eol-type what you'd like to be added to > > the Lisp manual? > > Eli, could you add that? Done. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2006-05-15 20:37 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2006-05-08 22:45 How to change line endings - where is it explained? Lennart Borgman 2006-05-09 3:45 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-09 5:48 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-12 17:57 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-14 20:17 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-14 20:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-14 21:00 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-15 3:14 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-15 20:37 ` Richard Stallman 2006-05-09 5:51 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-09 19:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-09 19:41 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-09 22:04 ` Luc Teirlinck 2006-05-10 3:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-10 5:49 ` Lennart Borgman 2006-05-11 3:44 ` Richard Stallman 2006-05-11 18:29 ` Eli Zaretskii 2006-05-12 14:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
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