From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 22:29:48 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19139"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 15 22:31:14 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpHuc-0004u5-K7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 22:31:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39388 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpHub-0001E0-MG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:31:13 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58988) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpHtL-0008DA-Hm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:29:56 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:39907) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpHtI-0005HS-Ln for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:29:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608067788; bh=oUmqV6Mb6x3nk1QmSWyXLwWIHP7t1sfI6ZzGqKbDGCA=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=hIM0rL46Ip1DMKoiUWOqfKjgq6hhEAJ1Y9DF6SRs9hjbVj0ae/nGFoikmXRUVblWe UYU1GTYP9oQ56eKYiDusao+kJsVjIBE47vXXW8W3xnev8mgArFvQgBuVTPCevKYTLU 1ZbJuq0jIbdySOY3mRCYf93PK6GMOPUxWuYsqcmM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs15.server.lan [172.19.170.183]) (via HTTP); Tue, 15 Dec 2020 22:29:48 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:3Zx8GV3mrP7iHeUIVrvysVgrNfXWI5Es6JXM9hEhN0PshU7XNBG2TiUGixfZT1urB1YnL AeaW+5xHFs1PYL0LutI1TVjC7i60Bty3m4CorHnyvfFt1Dz99jRWzR3O9UzaWxQVYQWqhCNLSZKU mwvz3N/ytHv7X6tBZYgeAf1gqj2XrdhPC9IvmjkI62ox++keseBs0VTMSAe2SQaB5zVCfP1mNp7C SgaaOzTSJlYioyL9QqY0KCfvmeOd+B45BGUuekgHZBDU9WyeJ7KEVfVe4XiMsSkG4d4JrKZE5GoQ Eg= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:tmTVlMjEkpQ=:3RxN0C5t5QGNiAjUnHinHD aFdhzpVWlVpuJjKWgPanXdrOb+oJ/lyQeVJprRLlg6Q03y/R5mYVXTSeZiFbRDKhvGzhRqLxT jbnas9Ht8gADs7F1yQsfKJvFJN0xNJPOFfmr4hHRNj+YgmclcxZOWmyB4MwFOZe9HQyTqEcbQ T6toqG3ujd+4FEMUch4uVIwG7rFgffTUPgeZkPtrOqJt04bZNgNF3dPHjI0psLUZ7s+C/orua v1/pHgEfu3NyfhhmQd60zit6yA7ZK9JTnsohEVkno2OYdb/bGWAjAS55wRbKTxIXOXfIGroyQ eXAzzrfGnIHERNmcZiEhPw3O8U+v9akS1pPmiN0R94V3T1AFJG1ymmWeqOq0Uu6Z59A0qF+fw JKdOSYiyvVvSlfHyYPrTcnKU3dRb4L10agCZUzx4wUVhhBunDOzu1FWq+BpPKXRFzW4dLs3jS /VrqRfoSBC5T+wbPBNi4ZPD1EnRYTtwgp80aoQf9JB0fSM80YUVU0Pu9d1wAcP/am2WUOmVv8 vG8/VGrffnhRyVsjWRw9i9wClVo0xcNnWmrlIJn3CLzcJbVylTVPifRpDNpVtD+RHXWWqoYj9 q67j97prPpgOw= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.21; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260930 Archived-At: > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 10:07 PM > From: "Dmitry Gutov" > To: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" , emacs-devel@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars > > On 15.12.2020 07:30, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > > Of 7.3K respondents, 5K disable toolbars, which is more than two > > thirds. So perhaps toolbars should default to off? I know toolbars > > were all the rage in the 90s, but that's apparently not the case now. > > > > Opinions? > > I also think the poll is heavily biased in favor of either Reddit users > (who are largely either power-users, or those who inspire to be), or > experienced Emacs users in general. > > For vast majority of them, disabling the toolbar is a trivial task. The > ones who it really serves are less experienced users, non-programmers, > etc. I don't think we have any significant data on that segment. > > Furthermore, features like this can have a very strong survivor bias: if > the toolbars are bad, users will disable them. But a better answer would > be to improve them instead. Spot on. There are aspects where certain modes are unwanted because they = are not feature complete. Have found too many instances of lost opportunities in = industry where projects are forgotten in that way. > Rather than one poll, it might be worth more to look at similar programs > (VS Code and IntelliJ IDEA come to mind) which both have a toolbar by > default, but make it easy enough to disable the "distracting" elements > of the UI for those who prefer them off. > >