From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:33:37 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <86ft46nb1p.fsf@stephe-leake.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19824"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment_Pit-Claudel?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stephen Leake Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 15 20:34:52 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpG60-00052P-92 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:34:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41940 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpG5z-00050k-Au for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:34:51 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56294) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpG5D-0004Zz-2Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:34:03 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.21]:60949) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpG5A-0005xR-W5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:34:02 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608060817; bh=4sFjtdPILYRqJEZ2G/afopNB9Pv6xHp0TRhhhAJuQDU=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=eZtqg3vTbhOibmD0LXlK+pyMhId3p6PXmDHcAD/VckTvc+PJ/XpYdMkaFfCFuM6W+ wbuo112Vai7RwLWsf58SE1GqG6uCP7MEvRFR4ljiZ1hSNKlsDNEfWwQuvurBcz/X+T yC2dJdFNyAEy22D9oBZ7xCDvnmAu/cKbTAFROzUY= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs15.server.lan [172.19.170.183]) (via HTTP); Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:33:37 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <86ft46nb1p.fsf@stephe-leake.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:AMElIKG8X3tNmN4bG2ScuI0z0HJl7moj8qXbuLWuR/hlifsTa65LBOcQof4a3S9lYNGfk /CnbZ5zXKAdrU18tmLuAYhNqGLhITTAHX/W1TsZ38iUyg83K8j+0/nzl+88DEeIg46zpVTnLRDF/ 94cOOXHM2wrTD19rUGYJOnVvv5lPnt7zKJ2Ur8anyKPbKtAMsh0IddpwJjh75T/Dc6BG4PfeFvzU IfXlO4/Q7/0xDrw2uBnbQ+UPW3TtnOWbtPVdAR1CFikfGJHLysx9KkG3+4gfKeagly9tRFz9XE/b Xk= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:Vkmd/DC63+8=:TOmpMiKtkuzvHQuryd1YpK K6nC0gVLrlVyWyo9SOytLGInI5D1enRf9GN1i1Kki63b6hweONJIHGhgDtSmX3sY8WW/eVo2v ztINxAJ4D8iJSw0UfrMaTWtnIzYHOMRiBhpafJAVRZt0rcAHy1A+IJCHpCg4DqGuWdzeZjmEQ 4XEBGg+rbX/YN0ASeZb3dlbdlpyOWSk008jObbK9UQUoMAyVCckLoE9IV6BJDC98+1+gsn0iM jTF3LnZCPncmb9CcTjR8fnQYBvj2DZg7hizQJwBFWf4OAo7WjUn+ogD2DJ+DCpHlkI1+eCdCL ZqXA+wlQWTvMG4boF1oeuanwv/T/qO/R6Oyks/QQVPqML1eaN5lkc7k+qXvok79bVSwLWExQN jAZ+zLPYaY6WkhmgfFLScYa1/vlh+y8UXCvqSyBuSEPfXy3/ifjV/gD32TmE8QP2UD3q3kBdi U/oU/eUDocOyHWJhF8dOKGPzTmLCqI8OrAFzRJVpivJ2OGN/6CuTTAKSZFaRra/Sy+fyEKUiZ bsTMyJqTS4c7pqT28j+/0mkpzrOL+P5fpJCIoQjrEexXsuFU5FOB8Jat8pBH9zhYlqIWMbuFc YLELUOie+J+4s= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.21; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260916 Archived-At: > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 8:06 PM > From: "Stephen Leake" > To: "Cl=C3=A9ment Pit-Claudel" > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu=2Eorg > Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars > > Cl=C3=A9ment Pit-Claudel writes: >=20 > > On 12/15/20 12:30 AM, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > >> Of 7=2E3K respondents, 5K disable toolbars, which is more than two > >> thirds=2E So perhaps toolbars should default to off? I know toolbar= s > >> were all the rage in the 90s, but that's apparently not the case now= =2E > >>=20 > >> Opinions? > > > > 2=C2=A2: keep them, though with prettier icons=2E It's trivial to disa= ble > > them, but it's not trivial to discover that they exist if they are > > disabled by default=2E >=20 > +1 > =20 > > (FWIW, this is a general philosophy: I think Emacs should ship with a > > lot more stuff enabled by default, maybe with a spartan-mode to revert > > to the current defaults=2E) >=20 > That works for me as well=2E >=20 > Lots of eye candy by default to seduce new users, followed by easy ways > to configure the UI for higher productivity (which is why I turn off the > toolbar; keystrokes are more efficient than mouse movements, and this > gives more screen area for text)=2E Spot on=2E We can then just use emacs modes to switch=2E New users will = not need to do anything, whilst experienced users can change modes=2E The problem that most comput= er users do not use Gnu is because most computers don't come with a Gnu System Pre-Installed= =2E Do people ordinarily change much on their phones, car, etc=2E=2E=2E No=2E = What we offer is that =20 if you want change and have the skills (or can get someone with the approp= riate skills) you are in a position to do so=2E But do not give new users more problems= by demanding they use the manual and learn elisp to customise the operation of emacs=2E Rat= her, the Emacs Mantra should be: ------- Emacs Mantra ------- Those with skills have the possibility to adapt emacs to their needs, once= they read the manual and learn elisp programming=2E =20 =20 > --=20 > -- Stephe >=20 >