From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Adding a generic mathematical library Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:49:05 +0200 Message-ID: References: <172176485988.7.10588738866494480552.387245090@slmails.com> <87le1qgl2n.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87msm5h7ma.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36160"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 25 17:49:58 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sX0j8-0009C1-LW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:49:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sX0iR-000141-9F; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:49:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sX0iN-00013h-IG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:49:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sX0iK-0003CR-Dr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:49:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1721922545; x=1722527345; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=sBB1i6Pu1fGZqq52rKqDnWseQMRo3pTCOH9KPsFvRgc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:MIME-Version:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject: Content-Type:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=KtnTU13vFMydDrVxA44qx6fuWwfMaTa70LWu686kZMLIEiPcMOu8ztQ05hGV/2bs 3WpXaADNEXjwsCEtsK2Wt4y5F1ebKM9jYj+iwRk7fphHJxwNS4m3duH6GpyGBpR+A H8QD4Ww3LHynkxT23VYe2fZMa4qNWWLGu0mK1BDbWGkeXlUu/CQWbrit78uk0MJdo vC5aCOUyYJpxeNIHwcFe7uXiaC7pd3Qt3HQGfLi0QQBc68BX35gCjEnSDjVDx5qvt ULi1SiCcMHafzkfFkacnfE35QvCELyFGwFrzvqoRjxfSWgd4baGixxREtp57PikZc bhe563dIuem46OSZDw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Original-Received: from [92.251.79.197] ([92.251.79.197]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs03.server.lan [172.19.170.169]) (via HTTP); Thu, 25 Jul 2024 17:49:05 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87msm5h7ma.fsf@dataswamp.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:qpJPb2hUVcMIssS8ZUjlC2c45VVEgTSLSI+S4axusab8z8Uzt0hZfu1m8oKRw6NIIPJQB 15LxtaixEtBguVQJVQrFweUtYYtMK3X7DGqr67+55lr0YQkoXS1mIY/YAwngY7P9dEALKTctsjTe 0DiyoNMHzZ3SC8nQC3rMLyoOVM/kmj5a6xY9s1zz5kHq/JfvZUSDs3W/QG2r83NJNHcpXPJPNuKo XqdbOfP1O6aqNADJkJ65PfDYginCYE7QMdvFwNpkEeT0nJGe6zaADxMpWmK6CgEjjL8FSw+fEkN5 7s= UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:6ximjggopFE=;2yDILh9ZtumDIDrxJoZoFF2Hx7Z NK4vY1xhV2v+T2rqOLhEIw6n0/ou2SaCc3VZKYPLQsD58GR7B+kc8ECvc/tTMsElX2yK9sbKH xNQkUJGTk3H9y1tqxgkC5oMKpzAWMkmW5wWCHdjXQWkotjaBPiFDxUOWrJHAxLRUzWQw7lTPb c/1Gx7NFXcKXUdU/35bpsQ59SPmpyVTLVFk7DWAoYrUG1Q6lFDXnhFf8FOiprGvp2s9E605KI Zq9/+LWlkrPFVgV3JbLo7+NQhY0oggKxPn8Vjx2rQIdqH0iCcge2kTMxthnnakf30n3Vwvixj G4DZsJK5C+Ma75H7Uk5c+qcQJhbY4pzC9lru0HFM2xX8eoRQlsOqgPCXLlnX7m2wSk7hO2sz8 fiZD3h3tAEYAzK7dvI+P9t7PVepqMpnydN1CadCTPOsWA7p6EBjLcm1S28fAXXxrP8HEQJVRa uqSf2mHfPS+V6nd6YatHzv5uUBJlJULWBuG+noD9c2uJXD+JGqwy00aM7PmX6PN2HZd/7tTcV rZ6KCew67cY6LwKK5Wi3y1qzDbc8SKc9G2PzLvw4GHrPDGcllk4Si0QvKXTsdA1BUJqPjj2HW m3ME/H2Jpr41QLnXnnTXNwTcwrgWiG10USPxtGq+9Eub/hTjt0AG6YGWXLl1xHJ2WuDGQQK7u imkS8aOzHLX7upvJQL3rhHx2gp4SJxwaCk+TtYZT4w== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.18; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322091 Archived-At: > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2024 at 2:24 AM > From: "Emanuel Berg" > To: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Adding a generic mathematical library > > Christopher Dimech wrote: > > >> Calc was brought into the discussion as a way of opposing > >> the idea of a library. To say, we don't need it, because we > >> already have it. > > > > Incorrect, we generally do not accept new packages that > > substantially overlap with existing GNU packages. > > That means the more you do this "program as a library", the > less you can have a common library for many programs. > > So the solution to the problem cannot be done, because of what > is the result of not having it arranged soundly in the first > place. When it would have been super-easy. "Here, here is > math.el and string.el, use it and put new stuff in it!" > Instead, that stuff has ended up all over Emacs. > > But it is what it is, anyone thinking that model is good, go > ahead and think so. > > "We don't do generic libraries. We think it is normal that > a program that has nothing to do with ERC, Gnus and Calc to do > generic operations on strings and numbers require files that > are part of all these programs." > > Instead of blaming why the problem cannot be fixed on others > who have nothing to do with that idea. > > > The procedure is for GNU to have a given package to do > > a given job, and people in that area to contribute to and > > improve that package, working together, instead of having > > many packages that each do different parts of a job, each > > developed on its own. > > In practice "program as a library" means the opposite. > Every program does a little of everything. Instead of adding > to the common library, what is missing is added to the > program. When something is needed by another program, instead > of bringing it from library, it brings in the first program. > Until there is something additionally needed, then that is > added, again not to the library but to the second program. > And so on. What you are suggesting is to have an improved design where the functional= ity of calc can be used elsewhere. We can still have the tool and the foundat= ional code to be calc. We do not need specifically a different name for a libra= ry. Many people know about calc but would not be aware of some new library tha= t could be popping up. The GNU Project, and by extension, the Emacs development community, has a unique culture and set of practices that distinguish it from other softwar= e development projects. Understanding these nuances is crucial for anyone involved, especially those considering taking on a maintainer role. > > Is there a good reason why an association with them is > > so terrible? > > Oh, absolutely not! Like I said, it is like this all over > the place. > > Here, check out the string library! Only those files are all > over Emacs. > > (shortdoc-display-group "string") > > -- > underground experts united > https://dataswamp.org/~incal > > >