From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 12:22:32 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> <87czz8n1gk.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40360"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 17 12:23:27 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kprNX-000ANU-09 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 12:23:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40996 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kprNW-000755-2L for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 06:23:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44554) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kprMj-00066D-J0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 06:22:37 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:53315) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kprMg-0001ph-6P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 06:22:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608204152; bh=XifKUuVDQco5fZ15mtvhZx6WkV+EuUyE7rZ6iusNNy8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=THEzHBFYBj7X5G1EiGD407lhTKdnXOvkXZgqIxkAd8ewrZg1XX8wxEFtnqSG2664i Bs8LBOIwEo6knCG65Tbd6xucD4bu05Ki/ntFHgPRuH7JAIWW8UYWzAIJtr5WM3iIs9 NiyZKJ7me19fZ++h2HITqgRkJJ4+4L2x5iYIsiZM= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs11.server.lan [172.19.170.179]) (via HTTP); Thu, 17 Dec 2020 12:22:32 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87czz8n1gk.fsf@gnus.org> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:YMscdUUHWjzigapn3rzaTftXoWShbnFfEGXCuKh7hwBA8u6B687pSC0tv5FZqI3a+VbaE nx3LlM1995tOygZJHwLp85uosbXgFA3dimGM2UC22Bcg3w35MhvfXT+/6nj/ydWMlxUk4lRegh64 DxU0btCNczFCEqltTda+GkKSLWR0lLT6iosKrrsqtPd8aMb2CTttwcYXIjyGaOLq2dJ/XRB3P043 0v4t33D/XPPmu5cIAHrGBxiX46/YZNcl6OUnOkRgMsEmaNR7aqCD8enbZIte2ANsM89ObUe93OvW Jg= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:XolFczYnTHk=:IeoHlx6oHsYy3vZrapwD5b FHrDA6xy3SWbCTkm6WKxAp1u5MVMGzqOSfVr3dHx6Elc1AT1z7ISFK2F8AOtIpBPsAAN59C5G z3YYuIbYT20MOihHnRXwO+8Tc82b29dFXT6f0ECSY0xJMbz+uIJG4ma08GiMt2Q+/M+iDt10W ynGQE4N28yXPDXEntAHmGDMwd5e+gmGUvKOgCcGFbLhCZljDyR35Y4IZHzcrD6liYRhv+wP/O JV7R5Se/4VJNTi3LXlSs3mA6QvACCBvGgBhfOfSSiLnBJWu+ArWyQh7A2c05oDcrwvtrvlbl6 n2OkZJ+Xh5wNWSePuQ0jgSYl6T8A4D+Nrl/UFx6dpPjCXJD4o6+2/I3ziZhb3Gg70xXuavJFE bti/sRrDpNJtmZTltt2AgF9VMMs3HTV0JO41Vkg+Got/giMOiWIUwtGrBeZXZDAxXLG0Ibdh0 FEp5iAd1bqFcxft5XN5GVsF5l7NQB+FUvTWfgxC8DfuCEWuWPIjohXEtwYmFr+Ub13rGVe9na sUacC1j2znP6xdIh+EXwOEVz+pGrPXOJoAQJuBkvAI4e8kVY7bksOs6aYgPew5hOZxehGJe+l yb0g16O3wMiro= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.19; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261098 Archived-At: > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 11:58 AM > From: "Lars Ingebrigtsen" > To: "Dmitry Gutov" > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars > > Dmitry Gutov writes: > > >> I mean, look at the toolbar that happens when you "emacs -Q": You get= an > >> Emacs with a scratch buffer... with a "Save" icon. In a buffer that > >> can't be saved. That's how much attention we've spent on toolbars in > >> two decades. > > Well, it actually can be saved, as soon as you type something (C-x C-s > > works), and it's one of the real usage patterns. The button doesn't > > indicate that, though. > > Yeah, the save button stays grayed out and you can't click it, which I > take to be an indication that this toolbar hasn't gotten a lot of love. > I mean, it's the toolbar shown in "emacs -Q", and even that one is > pretty nonsensical. > > > Maybe you're right. I checked back, and most contemporary text editors > > don't have a toolbar like we do. > > > > Atom/Sublime/VS Code don't have this kind of editor toolbar. IDEA only > > has specialized toolbars for, like, debugging. > > > > The recent versions of Kate (KDE editor) also seem to have removed > > it. GNOME Builder only has a small number of buttons, and they are on > > the title bar. Geany still has a toolbar, though. > > > > Even MS Word, while it has a toolbar for certain features, has moved > > the basic edit buttons to the window titlebar and made them pretty > > small. > > I think we should consider setting some standards for what should be in > a toolbar, and normal editing commands shouldn't be there. That is, a > toolbar should be for things that people want to click a lot, like > "pause" in a media player, or navigation commands like "prev/next" in > *Help*. It's the users who know what they want to click, so make them able to introduce icons with the commands they want. Someone has said there already exists some of that functionality. In my browser I can drag whatever item I want to the toolbar! Artists use toolbars all the time. Gimp has a toolbar you can drag around= . Fantastic. And Cad Systems rely on them. > I just had a peek at the toolbar in *Help* -- it includes things like > "Save" and "Undo". No wonder most people disable the thing. > > -- > (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) > bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no > >