From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Emacs website, Lisp, and other Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 14:31:11 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87sevj9b50.fsf@jeremybryant.net> <86h6bzqj2v.fsf@gnu.org> <87ed718o45.fsf@jeremybryant.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="40336"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Jeremy Bryant Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 07 14:32:30 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sbfqA-000AMN-3G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 07 Aug 2024 14:32:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sbfpF-0001lB-Dw; Wed, 07 Aug 2024 08:31:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sbfpC-0001kS-Go for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 07 Aug 2024 08:31:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sbfp7-0003lh-RL; Wed, 07 Aug 2024 08:31:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1723033871; x=1723638671; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=Xs+WZxBq0QnWi5EtJeoq5m0Y6q17TMNT9oOuuTLQ0DI=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:MIME-Version:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject: Content-Type:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=Oe8d3QPQHMy76zLUo+22Wdtv/odXUWZup+kkdscWVmkgAA8UmtJ6zDmp5HySSas8 pto//TxkTbu9Ev09NkNuoVe7VKC/PrIiXZVy9bkuUwskanxJSVpu6tL7JP1kYc8qn DOIUfq7FEKWKDWjCy0Cx/tFNOYdaeS6Ez/9X8bfO1LY0idRYcXM7WNbojJZUbLgv7 aS7rQwg3gp8pPh+W52OiqSjuIBby27JbHZE5B1F2LTyPO4ITI8Mjg9XBr+2fX5daI 4kiIu4mFyHulJULCoVKQqanWmmutFL3Io5Z1QVMYjUp/H4XlnyuMflV5Crchw3tno Ba1M4RtqGW9hhAGEzg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Original-Received: from [92.251.79.197] ([92.251.79.197]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs15.server.lan [172.19.170.183]) (via HTTP); Wed, 7 Aug 2024 14:31:11 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87ed718o45.fsf@jeremybryant.net> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:GdwPkMp2oCl9uPk5mVqhx0r2WnPftedV0Z7+i+EiAj8EU6eJfrvzQe16cQKsbR6IbCmeQ /eJ+NEsvS7kdfAYNeSotRWJeUkkFEi3wnlJ+4UcsubQ6uQAhqRs9ik4xLE/alv1XA3W8P3RPQyfT 5i3qzN3Xc7SbeBWNXK+sg+AdjZm2eFnWNwknJR5GRFMxbCRhrfNoAhAsYJYmcLVeikt6rbo4HVHK dNw9z5Y5YJesXoKXZuRL0bHS4tGXiM5aPQqTy6BJbMWkCLJlzFbHsdz5T/923uCYxYpELlmVeLhH VU= UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:CRHypVGgDRw=;0y1hScDCrAQDS4OQKrB/u0qCUKW nwryw33TSpIA6IykQ0AuLEQksEoEa9pu7V74Pg12lG5QZrQUo1gBtmfOsiIJZ57MmvqW83zLA V7lAtQu996Oz5b/2UF2ZaiSDoYkloJ7YLuHbb8TbpgLKO3BpWMqWkVIT2O2P+ZAxgHNNnXd7y Mu0YwOleDD+smS7rYmmc5tXxzu0NED6oDdEEZ9NinZ2bmJlOkylMHueQT+VyC6/wVL/6/zohC qypHWi6pOHuFXk4wfuu47JXndj9bGxw9y6kAelFjIavsj9PoSOuXayG7Ur69nxcGgxrl3Ozzq q5tsxBOQICZe4KG096EA58l/Qd0+ImaOPqt+k/F9ePbRrGkW87WreXU2y4taGzN3TB9AYFWxi t4jGhLUkGJg+RIRYIJ1I8ShKE9XO8UL64C6p6qltVWpp72CRXAuoPDRrt2wGZzpSptPJP+WWj K1MSfGalXtgfJULFkNezNppgY+60+xHzf/O6M8lVP1TVQxN9fPzJl9X2iP9HNBq/t61vuXeft hQ/NpoWfLYnTmew83YpsezmlbtJesEvZTX22kKfDriqaLbMkbkTK6/eAvAkkTl0qbqi9RIZ3C 1jCsrqD4oM5hNN+89Ge1LN7Jav3ZjNAVDSH/fbFWKKEiKsHCpbZ01eJl6lyNyrorAkOssqSjV Bl0FUVvgJp+VLng9SeSjlztT+GLoKO3fjkRI8PG+ug== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.18; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:322503 Archived-At: > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2024 at 7:09 AM > From: "Jeremy Bryant" > To: "Eli Zaretskii" > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org > Subject: Re: Emacs website, Lisp, and other > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > >> From: Jeremy Bryant > >> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2024 23:27:39 +0100 > >> > >> Reviewing the Emacs website, and previous discussions on this list be= low > >> (admittedly not recent, but still relevant). It seems important to a= dd > >> some text on Lisp which is not currently there, as per ideas of RMS a= nd > >> Eli summarised below. > > > > Why is this important? > > It appeared to be an outstanding documentation item to add to the > website, using the summary text written from RMS. > > I personally believe it is important and useful in the context of an > introduction to Emacs such as the website. For new users, or indeed > new contributors, Emacs Lisp may appear an intriguing choice, and that > summary offers a compelling reason for Lisp. The negative effects of children requiring compelling reasons to engage in activities are evident. This mindset reduces their willingness to explore, as they become driven by adult-directed incentives. Many foundational skills and knowledge areas, which require time and effort to master without immediate rewards, are neglected, limiting their exposure to new ideas and skills. The dependence on external motivation, leads to a lack of intrinsic drive and the ability to pursue goals independently. Avoiding challenging tasks without clear rewards hinders resilience and coping skills, essentia= l for handling life's difficulties. Additionally, a constant need for compelling reasons fosters a short-term mindset, impairing their ability to set and achieve long-term goals both academically and personally. > >> What do people think? > > > > I think it's a relatively minor issue, not worth arguing about. But > > it looks like we are up for such a discussion anyway... > > Right, it may not be an issue at all -- up to you -- only a suggestion f= or > documentation improvement. > > Emacs supports many languages, and on this is getting better thanks to e= glot, > tree-sitter etc. > > I thought the thread implicitly related to Emacs Lisp. As the elisp man= ual says: > "The great power of the Lisp language makes it ideal for > other purposes as well, such as writing editing commands." > > I should apologise as my initial thread was in retrospect too short on > context. It wasn't meant to start a sort of flamewar, sorry it has > caused you to respond to many tangents. > > > > >